Stature

[Azzurri]

They had exactly the same approach - indeed, Spurs and City had an even more extreme approach to rotation. The end result is meaningless as the mindset is the same, which is what you accurately describe.

No club placed a focus on putting progression beyond any doubt by using every means at their disposal, so the focus wasn't on the competition itself - the focus was on using the bare bones to secure assets for a more important competition.

Spurs had Paulinho, Vertonghen, Holtby, Defoe, Chadli, Lamela etc. - City had Jovetic, Dzeko, Richards, Milner, Garcia, Fernandinho etc. We had Oviedo, Naismith, Stones, Heitinga and Deulofeu on there. Massive difference.

 

[Allezfan]

On another day it most certainly wasn't...I have absolutely no issue with that lineup...

I'm annoyed because we've been so consistently awful in this competition under moyes and I really hoped that would change.

I've certainly seen us play worse in the league cup.

 

[Tubey]

But spurs and city won. They're in the next round, you can't ignore that. Their teams we're strong enough to win, ours wasn't.

Yes, but it wasn't due to a specific focus to ensure progression was it? The obvious first choice is to play the first team to give you the best chance if the competition is a priority.

Again, not bolding to be condescending...

 

[stevo27]

I always say start of the season that I'd love us to win the League Cup as it's the only domestic one we haven't won yet so it does piss me off when nights like tonight happen and we exit early.

 

[Allezfan]

Yes, but it wasn't due to a specific focus to ensure progression was it? The obvious first choice is to play the first team to give you the best chance if the competition is a priority.

Again, not bolding to be condescending...

But not all squad players are equal.

Spur's manager thought their squad players were good enough that he didn't need to play his first eleven to win easily. And he was right.

Our manager thought the same. And he was wrong. Our squad players weren't good enough for the task in hand, the argument therefore is that he shouldn't have trusted them.

Spur's squad players were good enough so that argument doesn't apply.

 

[Tubey]

That you can't comprehend the depth of feeling from fans over exiting that competition tonight mate. Read back from your first post, respectfully you've moved the goalposts a couple of times in order to carry on debating so I presumed you were being obtuse to kill a slow night, or just fancied being contrary.

The correct answer you're looking for consists of elements of the following:

1 - we haven't won a trophy in 18 years which if you really believe were massive (like you state in your opening post) is an awful long time not to treat an away cup tie against Premier League opposition like a second rate match.

2 - was eight changes necessary really when we have momentum from some good recent results and don't play now for six more days?

3 - can we be so passive about a cup competition which is the easiest one for us to win and guarantees a passage into Europe?

But I think you know this mate.

I haven't moved the goalposts on this at all - direct quotes from my first post:

Do you genuinely feel that winning the League Cup (or ANY cup for that matter) is a prerequisite for Everton to be an established big club?

So if the answer to that is "yes", then it leads to the question of was it wrong to therefore not place a priority on cup in terms of team selection and mindset.

Second question:

Are younger people seriously in meltdown over going out of the League Cup or is this just temporary over the top kneejerking?

Again, if the answer is "yes", then the follow up is "why?" - because if you're angry it's because you assume that Martinez and Everton have done something wrong in their attempt to achieve what you feel is a critical aim.


1 - Every Premier League club our level does it. You can try and dismiss it and say Everton are different due to our honours list of late, but every club would have fielded a similar side to what we did and you know it.

2 - Yes, in the eyes of the Everton manager and, realistically, any other manager in this situation.

3 - That's the question isn't it? I personally am pretty passive about it, as are the club clearly, but that's why this thread exists - why does your view contrast so strongly with that of Premier League clubs in general? If a League Cup is that valuable, why isn't it treated as such?

 

[Tubey]

But not all squad players are equal.

Spur's manager thought their squad players were good enough that he didn't need to play his first eleven to win easily. And he was right.

Our manager thought the same. And he was wrong. Our squad players weren't good enough for the task in hand, the argument therefore is that he shouldn't have trusted them.

Spur's squad players were good enough so that argument doesn't apply.

Yes, but Liverpool thought they would beat Oldham easily and didn't need to play their first eleven - they were wrong. It can go either way - the result doesn't change the mindset.

 

[chicoazul]

I haven't moved the goalposts on this at all - direct quotes from my first post:



So if the answer to that is "yes", then it leads to the question of was it wrong to therefore not place a priority on cup in terms of team selection and mindset.

Second question:



Again, if the answer is "yes", then the follow up is "why?" - because if you're angry it's because you assume that Martinez and Everton have done something wrong in their attempt to achieve what you feel is a critical aim.


1 - Every Premier League club our level does it. You can try and dismiss it and say Everton are different due to our honours list of late, but every club would have fielded a similar side to what we did and you know it.

2 - Yes, in the eyes of the Everton manager and, realistically, any other manager in this situation.

3 - That's the question isn't it? I personally am pretty passive about it, as are the club clearly, but that's why this thread exists - why does your view contrast so strongly with that of Premier League clubs in general? If a League Cup is that valuable, why isn't it treated as such?

Ah right, so you are being obtuse for reaction - hence why near enough everyone is disagreeing with you.

Anyway, carry on mate.

 

[Allezfan]

Yes, but Liverpool thought they would beat Oldham easily and didn't need to play their first eleven - they were wrong. It can go either way - the result doesn't change the mindset.

I don't think it's like rolling dice, though.

You make a judgement based on the strength of your squad and the strength of the opposition. Everyone wants to play a squad that is just strong enough to get through.

It's just we weren't quite as good as we thought we were. Hence the suggestion we should have played a couple more first teamers.

 

[Portland Toffee]

Why is the FA Cup any bigger than this (History aside) - seriously, at the end of the day both give you a trip to Wembley and get you in Europe. AMAZED that some are not bothered about it, we have won nothing for near 20 years. That is absolute crap.

 

[Tubey]

Ah right, so you are being obtuse for reaction - hence why near enough everyone is disagreeing with you.

Anyway, carry on mate.

How is it being obtuse FFS, I've just broken it down using my original post and took the time to write a proper response.

If anything, you're being needlessly dismissive.

 

[Tubey]

Why is the FA Cup any bigger than this (History aside) - seriously, at the end of the day both give you a trip to Wembley and get you in Europe. AMAZED that some are not bothered about it, we have won nothing for near 20 years. That is absolute crap.

It just is. You can't take the history away from it, it is what it is.

For the record, I personally don't think the FA Cup is a big deal either in the modern game (it's certainly diminishing due to big money in the league and the Champions League), but compared to the League Cup it's like the Holy Grail.

One is a primary domestic cup, the other is very much secondary. In my opinion, the FA Cup should have a Champions League place as a reward, and the League Cup should be afforded a lot more prize money to make it a relevant competition for top flight clubs.

 

[chicoazul]

How is it being obtuse FFS, I've just broken it down using my original post and took the time to write a proper response.

If anything, you're being needlessly dismissive.

Exhibit Z.

No problem, have a good night mate.

 

[Tubey]

I don't think it's like rolling dice, though.

You make a judgement based on the strength of your squad and the strength of the opposition. Everyone wants to play a squad that is just strong enough to get through.

It's just we weren't quite as good as we thought we were. Hence the suggestion we should have played a couple more first teamers.

That's not the case - Martinez rotated that side knowing full well he was weakening his chance of progression in the tournament by doing so. The focus wasn't on selecting the best side, it was selecting the most convenient with an eye towards the next game and an eye towards keeping the fringe players happy and giving them game time.

He'd have wanted the win, sure, but he wasn't willing to achieve it at all costs.

 

[Tubey]

Exhibit Z.

No problem, have a good night mate.

If you're going to treat me with a lack of respect, I'll have to start treating you the same - but it's a shame, as you're a good lad.

I'll put it down to just being butt hurt about an Everton loss, but to suggest I'm deliberately trolling people here is bang out of order.