Stature

[Tubey]

I'm not talking about how Martinez approached the game tonight or how any other manager approaches cup competitions.

They're not fans. We are. You know that this is a massive club that is about winning trophies. Or at least was and should be again. Seeing as we've not won one in almost two decades, something needs to give and soon. Therefore, no fan with your knowledge of the size of the club in their right mind would fail to be arsed about losing this game tonight.

But of course we're talking about that! If there's such a massive gap between what fans expect a club to be doing and what the clubs are actually doing, then you have to discuss what is going on.

I agree that at any time we should be aiming to win silverware, even if we'd won everything possible the season before. It's what football is about. But the question is whether there should be a legitimate focus on the League Cup.

Clearly, Roberto Martinez didn't feel that the League Cup was a priority. I don't think he's a monster for thinking that - clearly though, you lot think I am a monster for thinking that!

 

[Tubey]

Well, I'd mostly say it was because he didn't win.

Spurs and man city thought their team was strong enough to win and it was, ours wasn't.

So if we'd have won tonight with that side it'd suddenly be right, and if Spurs/City had lost they'd be wrong?

Surely the approach and mindset is the same regardless of end result?

 

[chicoazul]

But of course we're talking about that! If there's such a massive gap between what fans expect a club to be doing and what the clubs are actually doing, then you have to discuss what is going on.

I agree that at any time we should be aiming to win silverware, even if we'd won everything possible the season before. It's what football is about. But the question is whether there should be a legitimate focus on the League Cup.

Clearly, Roberto Martinez didn't feel that the League Cup was a priority. I don't think he's a monster for thinking that - clearly though, you lot think I am a monster for thinking that!

Are you being contrary for contrary's sake or genuinely a bit dim here?

 

[Tubey]

Are you being contrary for contrary's sake or genuinely a bit dim here?

What aren't you understanding mate? Serious question; I'll answer properly if there's something vague.

 

[Allezfan]

So if we'd have won tonight with that side it'd suddenly be right, and if Spurs/City had lost they'd be wrong?

Surely the approach and mindset is the same regardless of end result?

Yes.

The aim in the early rounds of a cup is to get to the next round. Ideally with the least ammount taken our of your first XI, in terms of effort, injuries, suspensions etc as possible. That's what Martinez was trying to do and that's what City and Spurs were trying to do.

Only they judged it spot on, he judged it wrong. Hence we're out and they're not.

 

[ilikecheese]

Which is what I said in the initial post. I fully understand that, that's why I'm asking the question.

However, the angst seems to be about Martinez putting out a massively changed side, but Spurs only started three from the side who played their last league game - Walker, Vertonghen and Paulinho. Manchester City made 10 changes with only Fernandinho starting. Yes, I know these are "big" clubs, but you can go through pretty much every team and see the same story.

So if every other team we're in and around are prepared to jeopardise fluidity to rotate the squad, then why is Martinez so wrong to do the same?

I said this in the match thread...had Martinez started our best 11, people would have been moaning saying that our lineup is that of a small club...and would have made snide remarks about how 'we're bigger than Wigan, Roberto'...I GUARANTEE that would have been the case.

The League Cup is what it is...a secondary cup...it is what it is...not really arsed about it

 

[Omarza]

I have a quick question in general. Do you people think the fact that Wigan got relegated has affected RM's decisions...in a way something like this...I won't prioritize a cup competition above the league and run a risk of losing possible valuable league points along the way. Just a question I thought of...

Now coming to my view on the cups and leagues...I would love us to win every competition if possible BUT ultimately would love to see us challenge for the league title. I know that is something that will take time BUT even if we don't have the money other clubs have and lack maybe in player ability, that can be corrected over time...although it might be a longish process. BUT...haven't we lost already even before starting and just become just an also ran if we don't set our aims high each season. Winning is usually as much a mental thing as talent...in other words a combination of those...but if we aim low how can we ever expect the team to start challenging for anything. What I mean is...aim for 4th and you might get 6th or 7th maybe...aim to challenge and you might get that top 4. A good professional once told me...always aim higher and never just settle...that's how you drive yourself to new heights.

I think the league should always be priority one...the FA cup second and the LC third in priority. I am upset we went out...but in a way do understand the team selection of RM I think.

 

[paulbefc]

But of course we're talking about that! If there's such a massive gap between what fans expect a club to be doing and what the clubs are actually doing, then you have to discuss what is going on.

I agree that at any time we should be aiming to win silverware, even if we'd won everything possible the season before. It's what football is about. But the question is whether there should be a legitimate focus on the League Cup.

Clearly, Roberto Martinez didn't feel that the League Cup was a priority. I don't think he's a monster for thinking that - clearly though, you lot think I am a monster for thinking that!

This whole thread you've started is about what the young people, the fans, think of this result. I am telling you, as one of those people, that my age has [Poor language removed] all to do with it. The history of the club has everything to do with it. Our lack of trophies is an embarrassment, given the size of the club. Therefore although I'm not crying over tonight, I certainly wouldn't say "I don't care. At all. Ever."

 

[Allezfan]

I have a quick question in general. Do you people think the fact that Wigan got relegated has affected RM's decisions...in a way something like this...I won't prioritize a cup competition above the league and run a risk of losing possible valuable league points along the way. Just a question I thought of...

No he's never played first team in the cups with any of his teams, this isn't a new policy.

 

[Tubey]

Yes.

The aim in the early rounds of a cup is to get to the next round. Ideally with the least ammount taken our of your first XI, in terms of effort, injuries, suspensions etc as possible. That's what Martinez was trying to do and that's what City and Spurs were trying to do.

Only they judged it spot on, he judged it wrong. Hence we're out and they're not.

They had exactly the same approach - indeed, Spurs and City had an even more extreme approach to rotation. The end result is meaningless as the mindset is the same, which is what you accurately describe.

No club placed a focus on putting progression beyond any doubt by using every means at their disposal, so the focus wasn't on the competition itself - the focus was on using the bare bones to secure assets for a more important competition.

 

[Allezfan]

They had exactly the same approach - indeed, Spurs and City had an even more extreme approach to rotation. The end result is meaningless as the mindset is the same, which is what you accurately describe.

No club placed a focus on putting progression beyond any doubt by using every means at their disposal, so the focus wasn't on the competition itself - the focus was on using the bare bones to secure assets for a more important competition.

But spurs and city won. They're in the next round, you can't ignore that. Their teams we're strong enough to win, ours wasn't.

 

[chicoazul]

What aren't you understanding mate? Serious question; I'll answer properly if there's something vague.

That you can't comprehend the depth of feeling from fans over exiting that competition tonight mate. Read back from your first post, respectfully you've moved the goalposts a couple of times in order to carry on debating so I presumed you were being obtuse to kill a slow night, or just fancied being contrary.

The correct answer you're looking for consists of elements of the following:

1 - we haven't won a trophy in 18 years which if you really believe were massive (like you state in your opening post) is an awful long time not to treat an away cup tie against Premier League opposition like a second rate match.

2 - was eight changes necessary really when we have momentum from some good recent results and don't play now for six more days?

3 - can we be so passive about a cup competition which is the easiest one for us to win and guarantees a passage into Europe?

But I think you know this mate.

 

[Brennan]

But spurs and city won. They're in the next round, you can't ignore that. Their teams we're strong enough to win, ours wasn't.

And it's not even like their games were close. 4-0 and 5-0.

 

[Omarza]

No he's never played first team in the cups with any of his teams, this isn't a new policy.

Aaaah thanks for clearing that up...I never watched Wigan closely and didn't know that

EDIT: I had the wrong quote

 

[ilikecheese]

But spurs and city won. They're in the next round, you can't ignore that. Their teams we're strong enough to win, ours wasn't.

On another day it most certainly wasn't...I have absolutely no issue with that lineup...