Should we really blame Moyes?

[Great Dane]

Moyes to Celtic was the solution

Getting Lambert from Norwich was the other half of the solution.

 

[paulbefc]

Now of course I can't say what others would do, but I would not. I would applaud a more attacking approach and I do believe we have the players to do it. The utra-defensive tactics clearly isn't working as we cannot keep a clean sheet if our life depended on it. Rodwell and Fellaini will be tidy in possesion, win you balls and can play ball and score goals, but Moyes never lets them move forward. That effectively means that we play 6-3-1, and when you only have one player who has pace and can keep the ball - Drenthe, you have no effective counter-attack. Moyes is doing the same as he did in 2004-2005, problem is that we don't have the pace of Marcus Bent, the long-range passing of Gravesen or the running of Kilbane which were all instrumental in grinding our results as we had an effective counter-attack.

See what you mean but to be honest I believe we'd lose either way. Simply because our squad isn't good enough because of the issues discussed in OP. We can't bring in the attacking quality needed or strengthen at the back to make attacking football realistic. If we had money and Moyes was dropping points due to negative football then I'd be saying it's time to go Davey. We played scintillating football with the 4-5-1 system a few years ago. The difference was we had a quality striker and a quality midfield. We lost that due to money, thus we're screwed until we get the money to get that quality back.

 

[Great Dane]

See what you mean but to be honest I believe we'd lose either way. Simply because our squad isn't good enough because of the issues discussed in OP. We can't bring in the attacking quality needed or strengthen at the back to make attacking football realistic. If we had money and Moyes was dropping points due to negative football then I'd be saying it's time to go Davey. We played scintillating football with the 4-5-1 system a few years ago. The difference was we had a quality striker and a quality midfield. We lost that due to money, thus we're screwed until we get the money to get that quality back.

Like I said, I don't care if we loose, as long as we go for the win.

 

[Deleted member 28206]

Getting Lambert from Norwich was the other half of the solution.

Close the door behind you,please.

 

[ToffeeDan]

can't we just go for it and win a few games? Like my lad said after last week's loss - it's got to the point where we just want a few points in the bag - never mind anything else.

 

[LTblue]

Gaps are starting to appear in Moyes's logic more then ever before, that's all I have to say about the current situation and I wouldn't place all the blame for it on him.

 

[The Equaliser]

I have started to hope that we get hammered every time we play, so that Kenwrigth's hand is forced and he sacks Moyes.

Tut tut. Disgraceful stuff altogether, whatever the motivation.

 

[Great Dane]

Tut tut. Disgraceful stuff altogether, whatever the motivation.

Just to illustrate how much I want Moyes out.

 

[froggyted]

Now of course I can't say what others would do, but I would not. I would applaud a more attacking approach and I do believe we have the players to do it. The utra-defensive tactics clearly isn't working as we cannot keep a clean sheet if our life depended on it. Rodwell and Fellaini will be tidy in possesion, win you balls and can play ball and score goals, but Moyes never lets them move forward. That effectively means that we play 6-3-1, and when you only have one player who has pace and can keep the ball - Drenthe, you have no effective counter-attack. Moyes is doing the same as he did in 2004-2005, problem is that we don't have the pace of Marcus Bent, the long-range passing of Gravesen or the running of Kilbane which were all instrumental in grinding our results as we had an effective counter-attack.

I agree with all of this and almost everything in your preceding two posts, except: 1) i think you underestimate the quality of Coleman and Drenthe and 2) i don't agree with sacking Moyes, since despite his faults he is surely the best manager currently available; moreover, Moyes will only ever realise his full potential with the funds to buy what he needs, and that's why i think he will go at the end of the season anyway unless the Board have sold to someone who can inject some decent cash into the Club (highly unlikely, but i live in hope).

Your point about Moyes being too defensive minded is one i particularly agree with, but i don't think he's going to change that, he's too stubborn. In fact, the further the season progresses and the nearer to relegation we get the less likely it will become because it will be even more a case of shutting up shop and trying to hold on for a point. Now is the time to try it, but i don't think Moyes has it in his psyche and perhaps that's his main failing as a manager.

Here's something to reflect on: we've played 25% of the season and we have 25% of the points needed to stave off relegation. What does that tell us?

Btw, what happened to Damon then? Did you lot get fed up with him calling everyone lid? ;-)

 

[harry]

How much did Bilyaletdinov cost again? He was on the bench, as was Ross Barkley. I'd cut Moyes some slack if he was actually having a go and trying to find solutions to our problems. If we where trying this and that and still getting the same results then you hold your hand up, we obviously don't have it and we move on. But we aren't doing that, he's gone for the safety, safety approach and we are seeing the same negative things, over and over again.

I'd take more pleasure from seeing us attempting to play football in League one.

This its true mate but its easier to blame a young irish right back (playing on the wing) who is our only player who attacks defences and has a go. will people stoop any lower to protect moyes.

 

[Great Dane]

I agree with all of this and almost everything in your preceding two posts, except: 1) i think you underestimate the quality of Coleman and Drenthe and 2) i don't agree with sacking Moyes, since despite his faults he is surely the best manager currently available; moreover, Moyes will only ever realise his full potential with the funds to buy what he needs, and that's why i think he will go at the end of the season anyway unless the Board have sold to someone who can inject some decent cash into the Club (highly unlikely, but i live in hope).

Your point about Moyes being too defensive minded is one i particularly agree with, but i don't think he's going to change that, he's too stubborn. In fact, the further the season progresses and the nearer to relegation we get the less likely it will become because it will be even more a case of shutting up shop and trying to hold on for a point. Now is the time to try it, but i don't think Moyes has it in his psyche and perhaps that's his main failing as a manager.

Here's something to reflect on: we've played 25% of the season and we have 25% of the points needed to stave off relegation. What does that tell us?

Btw, what happened to Damon then? Did you lot get fed up with him calling everyone lid? ;-)

Might not have made myself clear. Drenthe is a cracking player, pace and can keep possession. Coleman will be good as a fullback but useless as a right midfielder.

 

[Summerskin]

Why do we praise him when things go well if we're not willing to blame him if things aren't?

 

[paulbefc]

Why do we praise him when things go well if we're not willing to blame him if things aren't?

It's hard, in my opinion to blame him fully if he has to sell his top players and bring in virtual free transfers from obscurity. It is just fact that if we continue to do that, whether it's Moyes, Mourinho or Guardiola, we WILL go downhill.

 

[Thorny]

Moyes is to blame, to a degree, and I've given the reasons why in the other thread.

However, if you look at it this way its impossible not to blame BK;

You're at work, and you and 19 other guys all do the same job. You do your job better than most of these other guys, because you are, after all, a fairly good manager. Then, you're boss gives all the other guys new tools to do their job with, whilst taking away your stapler, hole punch, and printer. He instead gives you some staples and expects you to do the same job as you did before, and what's more to keep up with the other guys. Then he gives some of the other guys at work the latest apple computers whilst taking away your mac and giving you a typewriter. And so on, and so forth.

It was always going to catch up with Mr Moyes given the ineptitude of the board.

Sorry, I do feel BK needs to take some blame for certain issues, but this analogy does not make any sense...you're saying that Moyes' Boss (Bill Kenwright) is the boss of all 19 other Prem clubs and gives the other managers better transfer funds but not for Moyes? Sorry but this is seriously flawed...

 

[Christiffa25]

I'm a big moyes fan. He is working under really ridiculous conditions for a club our size. He has built expectations up over the years massively. We start each season as fans expecting top 6 minimum. We expect as fans to beat ALL the lower teams and pick up points against the bigger teams (which we have done in the past) but realistically if we did the two together we would be champions!

I think he tried to make it clear at the start of season that it would be a tough year this year. In the last year we have lost pienaar and Arteta. Two massive players for us. We have also sold on the likes of yak, beckford, Vaughan from the squad. The only worthy player to come in is drenthe.

Moyes will make mistakes with team selection and tactics as all managers do even fergie... But there working with alot better quality squads.

I'm sure if he had money to spend in the last 18 months we would of had quality additions to the side and he wouldn't have no need for Neville in midfield, Coleman playing RW ossie and Hibbert still making the X11 and Cahill still playing in the no.10 role supporting our only striker Saha.

So to recap yes moyes will make some mistakes but it's not the reason we are where we are. That's down to having no money to invest in the team and "keep up with the jones's"
When you look at the money spent and players brought in by the likes of Liverpool, spurs, city, Sunderland, stoke ect to name a few, moyes really is trying to fight a loosing battle and we have too many fans not taking any of this into account.

If he leaves us... You really will see a team in trouble