Ross Barkley

[davek]

I wasn't talking about pass completion and duels won. I'm talking about a key player who can create goals before the goal is scored.
Think about it, the goal scorer gets the goal, the one who last passed to him gets the assist but what about the one who beats his man, gets into space, waits for the most optimal pass and passes to the future assister? Because that's what Barkley is doing, and doing it well. Players like that are hard to come by and are invaluable.

Needs to work on his shooting though.

Mate, there's a reason the work of those types of player is labelled donkey work...it's because it's perfunctory and needs no complex detailed assessment.

 

[davek]

What did Koeman say mate? You don't need to find the exact quote but what was the gist?

I read two separate Barkley interviews recently where he stated that he's been given more responsibility and he's also been given freedom to roam. That's in line what I think I'm seeing on the pitch. It's also exactly why I think he's improved and improving.

In here: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...kley-reaps-benefits-everton-midfield-makeover

 

[Amw79]

They dont matter as much as goals and assists.

There's a definite hierarchy to stats and stuff like '% of successful 5 yard passes in the final third of the pitch" are utter bunkum fit only for nerds.

Agree to a point, and think dribbling is exactly one of those. Your mate Bolasie would score very highly in that stat, but his goals and assists are nothing to write home about.

Chances created is a massive one for creative midfielders to be judged on, as in one game they could put 5 on a plate for the striker, who misses them all. But the next game only puts 1 on a plate which the striker slots away.

You wouldn't criticise the midfielder for doing anything wrong in the first game.

 

[bluestevon]

I do that. And he might get getting the thumbs up off idiot journalists who are briefed to write positive things about Koeman turning all he touches into gold but players in the game can see how his game has changed from the explosive one he had to this bits and pieces player we have now.

I suppose it's all down to preference really at the end of the day: you either like players capable of expressing themselves by getting on the ball and letting rip, or you prefer a more subdued use of those players to fit in with lesser talents around about them.

I've come to find that former players turned pundits, with a couple of notable exceptions are utterly clueless about anything to do with the game mate, even if they have been 'in the game' as, are we now to accept the word and opinions of such luminaries as Jenas, Shearer, Lawrenson, Murphy, and Aldridge then?

Could have sworn not too long ago you absolutely slaughtered anyone quoting pundits opinions to support their own arguments mate. Didn't you?

Counter points in any discussion are great mate, but due to some going overboard on Koeman, although hardly seen any evidence really that people have, you have taken the polar opposite stance to that, meanwhilst the other 99% of fans just wonder what you hope to get out of it, to be proven right all along and say told you so, or to make the point that a fair few went overboard with Martinez so your trying to keep them grounded, when honestly, so what if people want to enjoy the footy and be optimistic, does that offend you that much really?

 

[davek]

Agree to a point, and think dribbling is exactly one of those. Your mate Bolasie would score very highly in that stat, but his goals and assists are nothing to write home about.

Chances created is a massive one for creative midfielders to be judged on, as in one game they could put 5 on a plate for the striker, who misses them all. But the next game only puts 1 on a plate which the striker slots away.

You wouldn't criticise the midfielder for doing anything wrong in the first game.

Chances created is very vague. As said a few days back: you lump a ball into the box from a corner and an attacker gets his head on it and it sails miles over = chance created.

It's nowhere near as accurate or significant as assist.

 

[Roger Milla]

The problem with Barkley was Martinez treated him as a luxury player. He should of been coached to be an all round midfielder but for 3 years he, in my opinion, was getting told to float around the pitch, wait for the ball to come to him and make something happen. I dont believe he received the necessary coaching at all and ended up giving below par performances.

I'm not sold on Koeman yet, but he seems to be guiding Barkley in the right direction. Hopefully he keeps progressing.

 

[Zezti]

Mate, there's a reason the work of those types of player is labelled donkey work...it's because it's perfunctory and needs no complex detailed assessment.

Whatever. He's already surpassed his best record for chances created with 10 games left. His improvement is clear to all but you.

 

[davek]

I've come to find that former players turned pundits, with a couple of notable exceptions are utterly clueless about anything to do with the game mate, even if they have been 'in the game' as, are we now to accept the word and opinions of such luminaries as Jenas, Shearer, Lawrenson, Murphy, and Aldridge then?

Could have sworn not too long ago you absolutely slaughtered anyone quoting pundits opinions to support their own arguments mate. Didn't you?

Counter points in any discussion are great mate, but due to some going overboard on Koeman, although hardly seen any evidence really that people have, you have taken the polar opposite stance to that, meanwhilst the other 99% of fans just wonder what you hope to get out of it, to be proven right all along and say told you so, or to make the point that a fair few went overboard with Martinez so your trying to keep them grounded, when honestly, so what if people want to enjoy the footy and be optimistic, does that offend you that much really?

I'm the 'polar opposite' to people who give OTT support to Koeman?

Let me introduce you to some facts:

1/ I stated I wanted Koeman in even before Martinez was sacked (if we were to have a new manager)
2/ I have stated a number of times we are on the up and moving forward from last season
3/ I have stated that Koeman is a decent manager.

I, in fact, take a substantially even handed approach to Koeman but I retain the right to critique him.

You continue to sup the Kool Aid with your mates; I'll continue to assess this feller and what he does.

 

[davek]

Whatever. He's already surpassed his best record for chances created with 10 games left. His improvement is clear to all but you.

Chances created.

Great.

 

[Amw79]

Chances created is very vague. As said a few days back: you lump a ball into the box from a corner and an attacker gets his head on it and it sails miles over = chance created.

It's nowhere near as accurate or significant as assist.

Completely agree it's not as significant as an assist but that's not to say it should be disregarded, just that it should be taken in context.

It's not quite as vague as you suggest though, as assists are a subset of chances created, and an assist could be someone lumping the ball in from a corner and attacker gets his head on it and scores = assist.

As i said before someone could have no assists one game, just due to the striker having a mare. Not to say they didn't have a great game.

Same as dribbles. Some of them could be dribbling out from the full back position. Doesn't mean anything in isolation, in terms of someone's attacking creativity

 

[Mikeonlythebestwilldo]

I'm the 'polar opposite' to people who give OTT support to Koeman?

Let me introduce you to some facts:

1/ I stated I wanted Koeman in even before Martinez was sacked (if we were to have a new manager)
2/ I have stated a number of times we are on the up and moving forward from last season
3/ I have stated that Koeman is a decent manager.

I, in fact, take a substantially even handed approach to Koeman but I retain the right to critique him.

You continue to sup the Kool Aid with your mates; I'll continue to assess this feller and what he does.

Should start a thread - daveks koeman assesment mate

 

[voodoobloo]

As an indicatorr of a player feeling more shackled and circumspect with what he can do when he gets the ball that stat was appropriate and very revealing, given how his number of 'take ons'/'dribbles' have fallen off the cliff.

It was his game...now it's been drummed out of him. He's a different, and for my money, less exciting and valuable player.

I disagree that Koeman is making her m less exciting to watch. But if you are correct then I think it does Ross a disservice to think that he has been irrevocably damaged (or devalued) through obeying instructions.

Although widely detested (by me too), Gerrard changed his playing style regularly to help his team and to suit his respective manager's style. Ironically, his style went from being a string puller to being a second striker (the opposite trajectory to Ross) and then back again at the end.

Ross is a great player who can do whatever he is asked (certainly now at least). If Koeman wants him to pull strings at the moment and not go on so many headless chicken runs then so be it.

 

[bluestevon]

I'm the 'polar opposite' to people who give OTT support to Koeman?

Let me introduce you to some facts:

1/ I stated I wanted Koeman in even before Martinez was sacked (if we were to have a new manager)
2/ I have stated a number of times we are on the up and moving forward from last season
3/ I have stated that Koeman is a decent manager.

I, in fact, take a substantially even handed approach to Koeman but I retain the right to critique him.

You continue to sup the Kool Aid with your mates; I'll continue to assess this feller and what he does.

Show me where ive been over the top in praising koeman mate, I didn't actually want the bloke and had huge misgivings about various parts of his management style and history, tanning what, thought he was gonna be agiantst playing younger players because all I was basing it on was some bumhurt saints fans, yup was wrong he's shown that already. Plus looking into his history it's never been his flaw to overlook young players who are good enough.
Thought he'd struggle with falling out with players - he did so at Valencia when taking over an aging squad of established players, yanno what, wrong again, he has learnt hugely from that experience, and maybe from a much less severe case at saints. That's a sign of a good manager, he's cut out a huge number of layers from there established importance in the team without any upset oto team harmony or its chemistry, that's a bloody hard thing to do, so huge credit again.

As for being even handed, don't make me laugh mate. Every compliment is either backhanded, comes with a caveat, or is followed by a stream of follow up posts where you snipe away at him, that's not even handed its just giving the illusion that your balanced so you can continue attacking him on every topic you can find.

By all means though continue, it's interesting to read.

Nice setting up of your escape reasons btw today for when Barkley starts getting raved over again, it'll be a ahhh he changed his view on How he should play and let him go back to how he was, no credit will be given this manager ofc, and any stats such as how much he's ran, defensive duties and all the others will just 've brushed under the carpet as unimportant or irrelevant, unless it's the one stat such as dribbles per game attempted which supports your view ofc.

 

[bluestevon]

Chances created.

Great.

Show me one player who finished in the top 5 of chances created in the past three years who isn't widely regarded as a top playmaker mate?

I replied giving you the list of them the other day, but strangely it was a rare post you forgot to respond too...

 

[alwaysblue]

No mate. The new directive is: "I don’t need Ross on the halfway line having eight touches on the ball, we have enough players behind the ball."

He will still be defending higher up though, your first defender is your centre forward. They might not cross the halfway line back into our half, but they're still part if the overall defensive unit.
What RK has put into Barkley is where to be and what to do in that situation.