Ross Barkley

[davek]

What I like is he influencing every game now as opposed to one in five, I think the maverick style has been tapered a bit but he is more involved in subtlety influencing the game, previously he could be a passenger when he couldn't beat 10 players or score from 30 yards. I think to be fair his progression has been short lived I've only seen an improvement since Hull away onwards so we are only talking 8 games, I'm also very disappointed to see an article by him today saying he's in top form. He's playing at about 70% of what his potential is, so a self pat on the back is dissapointing. He's three years behind in his development for me, his next step is calibrating his game between discipline and effectness Vs Creativity And getting the consistent maximum from those facets of his game. He has a way to go yet, he should be hitting Gerrard and Lampard standards.

In mitigation to the above though he's done better with better players around him.

He won't progress his game much here. I mean, what is there to teach someone after they hear what you're saying and run a lot longer and harder and lay the ball off more? What's the next step after that? He already has the explosive creativity so he won't be taught that.

If he develops it'll be away from this club under this manager, that's for sure.

 

[davek]

Key passes don't tell you anythig then as a stat Dave?

top 5 from 14/15 Ozil, Silva, Fabregas, Hazzard, Sanchez
top 5 from 15/16 Ozil, Payet, Eriksen, DeBruyne, Silva

top 5 from this season Payet, Eriksen, De Bruyne, Ozil, Barkley/Sanchez


I would say that contains some of the most highly rated creative players in the league in every season, and this is the first season Barkley has featured anywhere near those names, doe sthat not suggest something?

Or is Barkley this season the one abberation in those lists of highly creative players - over the past 3 years - yanno the only one whose had the creative side of his game neutered?

For comparasion lets look at the quality of players the past 3 seasons who have occupied the 'most dribbles' top 5

14/15 Hazzard, Chamberlain, Moses, Sanchez, Coutinho
15/16 Zaha, Mahrez, Sanchez, Barkley, Bolasie
16/17 Traore, Hazzard, Zaha, Bouffal, Dembele

out of the 12 players there - all bar Barkley and Dembele are wide players/wingers

every single one of the players listed in the top 5 on key passes are regarded as elite playmakers mate, the ones who dominate the dribbles per game stats are a very mixedd bag (Zaha, Bolasie, Bouffal, Traore, Chamberlain, Moses( playing on the wing in 14/15) would never ever be described as amongst the best creative playmakers in the country would they?

So what's a key pass? Give me some idea what that is.

 

[Neiler]

He won't progress his game much here. I mean, what is there to teach someone after they hear what you're saying and run a lot longer and harder and lay the ball off more? What's the next step after that? He already has the explosive creativity so he won't be taught that.

If he develops it'll be away from this club under this manager, that's for sure.

That's a bit silly mate, like every career you don't know it all at just turning 23, it's now about developing competence, consistency and balance in the creative and strategic aspect of the game and those two facets. He's at 70% for me at the moment. Gerrard is the yardstick he should be judged off.

 

[catcherintherye]

Barkley is on target to score about 6-7 goals this season in comparasion with 8 last season, he's on target to create about 9 goals this season - so overall his goal/assist return is gonna be about the same combined, then again 4 of his 8 goals last season came in a 5 game spell - which should he repeat a similar thing this seaosn would mean he would blow last seasons goals scored stats out the water, until seasons end we won't know.

After all he'd scored twice as many as last seaosn after 9 games this season, so as i say - partial season stats can be subjective.

do i see any deteriation in his attacking game, answer is simple really Dave, i see the lad developing one of the single most important traits which seperates players at the very top fromk those who end up with careers at the likes of stoke where they are lauded for showing up 1 game in 5

He is creating more, he is becoming more intelligent in when and where to do things on the pitch, and i couldhnt care one little bit if he does one or two dribbles a game less, as if thats what we rate the most then we should recall mcgeady and D3eulofeu and play them every game as they excel at that, we wouldnt win any game smind - but we'd win the most dribbles per game mini league.

Good post. I think the key difference is that even on games where it doesn't go his way he still contributes. His worse games have got better.

Daves argument that he hasn't reached the peak of the first half of Martinez final season is fair enough. I'm not sure he'll ever play in a side with that attacking intent and freedom again. It's a fair point but I can't see him being used like that much more.

Watching him this season, and I've been critical of him but you can see a breakout is close. For 30 minutes against Spurs he took the ball deep and dictates play. More so than any midfielder on the pitch.

He needs to start adding goals, particularly ugly (or headed) goals to his game. More like Hull away. You can see he's working on his heading but he can get between 5-10 league goals like this a season if he keeps getting himself in the box. I then think with the growing confidence he will score more long range efforts.

He strikes the ball so well but he needs to work on when and how to arrive on the box. As I said though you can see he's kicking on and will be better for a full pre season.

 

[davek]

Yeah, it's not like Rooney moved on to a bigger club and got all his instinct trained out of him. Barkley has been given a different role by Koeman but he is playing more consistently and better than he has before. And he is still allowed to take risks.

Ok, he's not taking on a couple of players and smashing one in but let's be honest, how often did he really do that?

Players need to adapt and Ross is doing that. Going to Man City or Chelsea wouldn't help him

Rooney had nothing taken away from him by going to United. That club allowed him to showcase his ability. Rooney was never a show boating player full of tricks. He's always been a player who ruthlessly knows what to do to hurt teams.

Barkley going to an elite club would be expected to get behind the ball and work, yes. But the other side of his game would be emphasised and accentuated as the positive it should be. Here under this regime and with some of our own fans it's almost seem as a sign that he's just arseing around.

Bottom line here is that many of our own supporters would rather see Barkley leg it about blocking and tackling than getting on the ball and driving toward the opposition penalty area.

I'll never understand that mentality. As said: giving donkeys strawberries.

 

[bluestevon]

So what's a key pass? Give me some idea what that is.

The final pass leading to a shot at goal by a teammate.

 

[bluestevon]

Good post. I think the key difference is that even on games where it doesn't go his way he still contributes. His worse games have got better.

Daves argument that he hasn't reached the peak of the first half of Martinez final season is fair enough. I'm not sure he'll ever play in a side with that attacking intent and freedom again. It's a fair point but I can't see him being used like that much more.

Watching him this season, and I've been critical of him but you can see a breakout is close. For 30 minutes against Spurs he took the ball deep and dictates play. More so than any midfielder on the pitch.

He needs to start adding goals, particularly ugly (or headed) goals to his game. More like Hull away. You can see he's working on his heading but he can get between 5-10 league goals like this a season if he keeps getting himself in the box. I then think with the growing confidence he will score more long range efforts.

He strikes the ball so well but he needs to work on when and how to arrive on the box. As I said though you can see he's kicking on and will be better for a full pre season.

He'd be close to double figures this season if he'd buried about 4-5 really gilt edged chances he's had, small margins and all that, it's also massively apparent that teams have set out to deny him the chance to shoot from range - and they can do that because we lack goals/threat from other areas of the pitch besides Lukaku, give him the type of space we gave Kane - or the space he was affored his first couple of seasons before teams realsied what a danger he was from distance and he'd score more/.

Hopefully coupled with his steady imrpvement we are seeing then we bring in another focal point of the attack and that will see Barkleys productivity rise

 

[Amw79]

The final pass leading to a shot at goal by a teammate.

This. Opta definitions (which is where squawka source from) as follows:-

Key Pass

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

Assist

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball scoring a goal.

Chances Created

Assists plus Key passes.



But I reckon this is all BS, and not at all relevant to how a player is performing attacking-wise.

Nah mate, give me number of dribbles all day long - that's all I need to know.

 

[bluestevon]

Rooney had nothing taken away from him by going to United. That club allowed him to showcase his ability. Rooney was never a show boating player full of tricks. He's always been a player who ruthlessly knows what to do to hurt teams.

Barkley going to an elite club would be expected to get behind the ball and work, yes. But the other side of his game would be emphasised and accentuated as the positive it should be. Here under this regime and with some of our own fans it's almost seem as a sign that he's just arseing around.

Bottom line here is that many of our own supporters would rather see Barkley leg it about blocking and tackling than getting on the ball and driving toward the opposition penalty area.

I'll never understand that mentality. As said: giving donkeys strawberries.

Actually Dave, he had his dynamism reduced (tempered) upon moving to United, it all became about the team rather than the individual, which is exactly what you are arguing against in regards to Barkley - so your arguing Rooney became better because of this, BArkley has been ruined because of this.

Which one is it then mate?

Thehnj again you seem to be saying that Rooney wasn't a player who whilst at Everton drove towards the opposition penalty area it seems

 

[streeky]

Watching ross is better than eating hot jam roly poly and cold custard and i didn't think anything came near to that.

 

[bluestevon]

This. Opta definitions (which is where squawka source from) as follows:-

Key Pass

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

Assist

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball scoring a goal.

Chances Created

Assists plus Key passes.



But I reckon this is all BS, and not at all relevant to how a player is performing attacking-wise.

Nah mate, give me number of dribbles all day long - that's all I need to know.

Funny thing is at home his number of dribbles per game etc is actually not that far reduced on last seasons numbers - 2.5 per game, its away from home that his numbers take a hit 0.8 per game, probably becasue we go a lot more direct (especially first half of the season) and try to get it up to Rom quicker - which actually suits the players strengths

 

[Barnfred 55]

Actually Dave, he had his dynamism reduced (tempered) upon moving to United, it all became about the team rather than the individual, which is exactly what you are arguing against in regards to Barkley - so your arguing Rooney became better because of this, BArkley has been ruined because of this.

Which one is it then mate?

Thehnj again you seem to be saying that Rooney wasn't a player who whilst at Everton drove towards the opposition penalty area it seems

This is like a game of chess.

Check!!

 

[Amw79]

Funny thing is at home his number of dribbles per game etc is actually not that far reduced on last seasons numbers - 2.5 per game, its away from home that his numbers take a hit 0.8 per game, probably becasue we go a lot more direct (especially first half of the season) and try to get it up to Rom quicker - which actually suits the players strengths

That is interesting, as I did some short / long ball comparisons between home and away which backs that up.

 

[MikeH72]

This. Opta definitions (which is where squawka source from) as follows:-

Key Pass

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball having an attempt at goal without scoring.

Assist

The final pass or pass-cum-shot leading to the recipient of the ball scoring a goal.

Chances Created

Assists plus Key passes.



But I reckon this is all BS, and not at all relevant to how a player is performing attacking-wise.

Nah mate, give me number of dribbles all day long - that's all I need to know.

I bet Bolasie's total number of dribbles is massively high, that's the funniest bit.

 

[hetion]

The only reason I come on GoT anymore is to watch @bluestevon take @davek to pieces post by post