Ronald Koeman discussion

[blue61]

Crying at 'the darkness'

They've made me cry for about 45 years

 

[COYBL25]

If as the Esk states there was a clear the air meeting it looks to have been times at the right moment, but also crucially it has had an affect. It is often important that there is an immediate response to those sort of meetings, as frankly you don't want to be holding them often and if there is little affect people can very quickly lose faith in the institution. In many ways they are something of a last resort.

That result last night was a perfect tonic. The body language and performance of McCarthy was noticeably different. He was like a different player in the space of 3-4 days. I know people will understandably say he should be playing like that every week but it's not ever that simple. If you look at it this way. Over the last two seasons he has played through an injury which affected his form. Then asked to perform a role that didn't suit him/bring the best out of him (just sitting). On the final day of last season he was given freedom, played very well and scored. A new manager then comes in, signs a lad who plays his position and linked with others. He's shoved to play out of position and then benched in a game after half an hour to change shape of the team when he was doing an unusual position ok for him. He then sees the new signing excelling in a role he may have fancied. There is then a subsequent argument with his national team manager and club manager with people publically questioning his fitness.

If this was any other workplace it is understandable that the employee would want to leave and in the interim their performance level would dip. Not all of the above is Koemans fault, or even most of it but maybe (and hopefully) McCarthy may have presented his side of things. Whatever happened he was a different player last night and put in the sort of performance we have been missing since he went off the boil. Barkley is another one, he looked rejuvenated.

January is coming and will be important. This one win cannot be allowed to sidetrack us from getting in players we need. However the number we needed to get in was becoming unmanageable. Hopefully some of the performances last night can be a building block to improved performances for some players that limit the quantity we require. Whichever way we look at it, getting in more than 3 will be difficult.

There are very few manager who re-invent the wheel (in any industry). What lots of good managers do is they can spot a change when it's presented to them and have the confidence and humility to see it and generalise their practice from it. Moyes and his famous 4-1-4-1 formation was actually forced upon him due to injuries to strikers. Cahill, Gravesen & Carsley worked and we found a way of playing for the next 5-6 years that worked.

Last night feels another of those moments. 1 Sitting midfielder, two box to box runners and 2 centre forwards on the pitch gave us the balance we needed. Each player looked like they knew their jobs and were happy to carry out what was being asked of them. Similar happened for the last 30 minutes against United. Valencia helping Lukaku (and freeing him up) with a more direct style in possession and higher pressure without it worked. The question will now be can Koeman run with the idea.

A final point for Koeman, he was brave last night and earned the bit of luck we had. We'd have all taken a point beforehand. He brought on Mirallas for Lennon and Calvert Lewin on for Valencia. Both were brave and attacking changes at 1-1.

Excellent post

 

[Joey66]

lets hope we can go on a run , and not wait ten games for another win I feel last night the manager responded , and with that the players after a iffy start played their hearts out - it shows you we have a good team!

 

[mutley]

As opposed to some on here who appear to have been hoping we'd lose last night?

Never seen anyone say that, were was this said ?

 

[bluestevon]

lets hope we can go on a run , and not wait ten games for another win I feel last night the manager responded , and with that the players after a iffy start played their hearts out - it shows you we have a good team!

Just did some checking of Saints last season, after 16 games they had 21 points (2 less than we do now), 24 points after 20 games., 39 points out there last 18 games though.

Any kind of second half of the season remotely resembling that one last year would be amazing like

 

[Joey66]

Never seen anyone say that, were was this said ?

People expected us to lose on hear that's not the same after 20 minutes it was relegation football, their fluky goal after too many mistakes gave us a performance of our season it now has to continue

 

[Philw]

he should be under pressure for results

...

he is not above scrutiny and could have performed better over the last 10 games, but also that any talk of sacking a manager after 6 months and one botched transfer window is premature. He deserves to be given time to build his team to be judged but also while managing other people’s players he could have been more pro-active in getting something out of them.

Surely this should be the only viewpoint? Not that I'm saying that anyone has said he is above scrutiny, but certainly any said scrutiny needs to be tempered by the situation he has taken over, and the short amount of time he has had.

I don't get these 'terrible squad he's inherited' shouts either. It's basically the same as in Martinez's first year, give or take a handful of transfers, and a couple years older/more experienced. Players may have been out of form, or not playing to the levels they were capable of, but that doesn't make them, or the squad, terrible all of a sudden. It may not be as good as many people were saying previously, but it's also certainly nowhere near as being pontificated now, and certainly with any decent manager should be capable of challenging for the European places at least.

They've made me cry for about 45 years

I quite like The Darkness. I Believe in a Thing Called Love was a great song...

 

[catcherintherye]

Surely this should be the only viewpoint? Not that I'm saying that anyone has said he is above scrutiny, but certainly any said scrutiny needs to be tempered by the situation he has taken over, and the short amount of time he has had.

I don't get these 'terrible squad he's inherited' shouts either. It's basically the same as in Martinez's first year, give or take a handful of transfers, and a couple years older/more experienced. Players may have been out of form, or not playing to the levels they were capable of, but that doesn't make them, or the squad, terrible all of a sudden. It may not be as good as many people were saying previously, but it's also certainly nowhere near as being pontificated now, and certainly with any decent manager should be capable of challenging for the European places at least.

Well I hope so mate. But difference of opinion is what makes the world interesting and keeps forums worth reading so people will have different views. I think you nail it though, he should be doing better with what he inherited, but his reign is in it's infancy and really he should be judged when he starts to get the players in he needs.

The second point is an interesting one. I don't think the squad is terrible but I would say it's very unbalanced. Both in terms of positions but also age and levels of consistency. Martinez's first season was a perfect equilibrium, but footballers abilities don't remain static. As they get older players do decline. Since that season, Distin, Howard, Osman & Peinaar have all left (following a decline) while Jagielka, Baines, Kone and Barry have all aged over 30 and while they do ok are probably not the players we had 3 years ago. You could also say McCarthy, Mirallas and Coleman have declined since that season, while the younger players such as Deulofeu, Barkley and Besic haven't developed to consistency deliver to fill the void left. Lukaku has come on and Stones who came on has been sold. At the same time within the PL, the increase of TV money has meant that sides have all improved their squads and some have caught us up.

What's important to note in all of this though, is that we cannot really reverse the hands of time on the older players. However there remains a core group of players who can still meet the challenge of putting together an enviable team that can compete with anyone. I think last night showed why McCarthy was held in such high esteem and why Barkley is potentially the best English midfielder of the last decade. Getting players like them, Coleman, Gueye and Lukaku regularly delivering at their best supplementing some of the older heads and some strategic recruitment is the way to go.

 

[squonk]

Lots of name calling from the apologists I've noticed, what happened to civilised debate, where it was acceptable to have a differing opinion.

labeling people as apologists for supporting their own club and manager doesn't really help either tbf.

 

[blueblue]

Just so that I am clear on where we are with Koeman,
Is he still a downgrade and Martinez and should be sacked immediately and hang the millions it would cost to do so.

OR

Is he now again possibly the greatest manager around and we are lucky to have him...until Barca come calling at least.

I find it hard to keep up.

 

[JLW]

Just so that I am clear on where we are with Koeman,
Is he still a downgrade and Martinez and should be sacked immediately and hang the millions it would cost to do so.

OR

Is he now again possibly the greatest manager around and we are lucky to have him...until Barca come calling at least.

I find it hard to keep up.

He is none of the above, he is a manager who we all (well some of us) hope he gets it right in time. At least 1 and half seasons and a chance to get his own players in.
If he keeps us were we are now until the end of the season then its progress.

 

[GwladysPhil]

He proved me and a few others wrong last night by getting the team to triple their efforts.

Not a fan of him saying this is a result that;s got a place in history or how ever he saif it, a league win against Arsenal isn't that much to remember compared to a trophy.

 

[Mickey]

First time since he's joined looked arsed. Headed the goals in himself.

 

[1966efc]

Just so that I am clear on where we are with Koeman,
Is he still a downgrade and Martinez and should be sacked immediately and hang the millions it would cost to do so.

OR

Is he now again possibly the greatest manager around and we are lucky to have him...until Barca come calling at least.

I find it hard to keep up.

For some chips and mayo, he'd be whatever you want him to be.

I'm told.

 

[4737carlin]

He proved me and a few others wrong last night by getting the team to triple their efforts.

Not a fan of him saying this is a result that;s got a place in history or how ever he saif it, a league win against Arsenal isn't that much to remember compared to a trophy.

Well Walter Smith got one and a week later one against Chelsea, can Ronald do back to back big home wins? lets hope so