Roberto Martinez discussion

[catcherintherye]

I see some people are now labelling him with the dithering stuff Moyes got.

Maybe, just maybe it's due to our current and previous manager not getting backed by the current custodians of the club.

I think some of the vitriol Roberto gets should be directed at the board. It's like people forget we went about 5 transfer Windows without making a significant signing and had a firesale at the end of it.

This is an excellent point. It always made me laugh with the anti-Moyes brigade that he was "dithering" over transfers. Like a manager wouldn't want to sign good players. I think we are now seeing that the problem lay with the running of the club not it's manager.

 

[Tubey]

Tubey, my friend.

We often agree on things so I want to specifically ask you the following:

Do you think that 2 seasons, heck even 4 seasons (providing of course we stay competitive), is an unfair time frame for Martinez to introduce a totally different mentality and dynamic into the club?

For whatever reason (board/debt etc) we can't go out and buy Iniesta, Xavi and Rakitic for the system, and therefore in buying these younger players he wants to develop them himself.

Isn't it one or the other? Buy the perfect players for the system (a successful system, see Munich/Barca) or 'grow' your own players to be able to achieve success?

I know this sounds ridiculous, but I'd be happy if we finish 12th this season, 8th next season if it meant we finished 4th the season after. And further, i'd be happy to take the risk of the first two and then look at him in 2 years time and see the progress (cups? signings?)

He deserves patience and credit for what he's trying to do ie make us a team who is in control of the ball and the game. I fully admit that his first season clouded his judgement in that it made us look like a) we were the 5th best team in England b) that we needed to continue to improve on signings (not just retain that squad) as it's likely teams wouldn't go toe to toe in his second season.

I still think he's brilliant and deserves time.

Over to you Tubes?

That's fine you think that - all power to you. You think his approach is going to lead to better things in the future.

I don't think that. I would if I saw a pragmatic manager who knew how to adapt his tactical approach to what is required, but I don't see that.

So I'm seeing a massive gamble on a guy who has no Plan B whatsoever, rigidly doing the same thing over and over again, and seeing it not work.

The Premier League has seen success go to pragmatic managers - Mourinho, Ferguson and so on. In the tier below, Pulis and Moyes enjoyed success with the same pragmatism. Van Gaal is doing it now at United; even when Rodgers got Liverpool to 2nd he did it by binning off his ideals and hitting Suarez/Sturridge/Sterling early and long.

There's a big problem when even a hack like Rodgers is more pragmatic in his approach than Martinez.

So that's my issue. I'd say he deserved patience if he hadn't show such glaring issues in his management, but I'd say giving this guy four years no matter what would be a disaster. The squad he has is good enough to do better than he did last season, and chronic underachievement leads to a decay in squad quality as you lose the ability to attract players.

Changing a philosophy is fine - doing it at the cost of actually managing a team to get results is not.

 

[Deco]

If he signs Van Dijk, all is forgiven

lol I hope we sign him just for your reaction mate.




I hope Martinez gives the likes of Kone more gametime and Barkley a chance in CM following their performances on Saturday

 

[Titus Bramble]

That's fine you think that - all power to you. You think his approach is going to lead to better things in the future.

I don't think that. I would if I saw a pragmatic manager who knew how to adapt his tactical approach to what is required, but I don't see that.

So I'm seeing a massive gamble on a guy who has no Plan B whatsoever, rigidly doing the same thing over and over again, and seeing it not work.

The Premier League has seen success go to pragmatic managers - Mourinho, Ferguson and so on. In the tier below, Pulis and Moyes enjoyed success with the same pragmatism. Van Gaal is doing it now at United; even when Rodgers got Liverpool to 2nd he did it by binning off his ideals and hitting Suarez/Sturridge/Sterling early and long.

There's a big problem when even a hack like Rodgers is more pragmatic in his approach than Martinez.

So that's my issue. I'd say he deserved patience if he hadn't show such glaring issues in his management, but I'd say giving this guy four years no matter what would be a disaster. The squad he has is good enough to do better than he did last season, and chronic underachievement leads to a decay in squad quality as you lose the ability to attract players.

Changing a philosophy is fine - doing it at the cost of actually managing a team to get results is not.

Do you think our tactics in the first half against Watford were exactly the same as in the second half?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Tubey, my friend.

We often agree on things so I want to specifically ask you the following:

Do you think that 2 seasons, heck even 4 seasons (providing of course we stay competitive), is an unfair time frame for Martinez to introduce a totally different mentality and dynamic into the club?

For whatever reason (board/debt etc) we can't go out and buy Iniesta, Xavi and Rakitic for the system, and therefore in buying these younger players he wants to develop them himself.

Isn't it one or the other? Buy the perfect players for the system (a successful system, see Munich/Barca) or 'grow' your own players to be able to achieve success?

I know this sounds ridiculous, but I'd be happy if we finish 12th this season, 8th next season if it meant we finished 4th the season after. And further, i'd be happy to take the risk of the first two and then look at him in 2 years time and see the progress (cups? signings?)

He deserves patience and credit for what he's trying to do ie make us a team who is in control of the ball and the game. I fully admit that his first season clouded his judgement in that it made us look like a) we were the 5th best team in England b) that we needed to continue to improve on signings (not just retain that squad) as it's likely teams wouldn't go toe to toe in his second season.

I still think he's brilliant and deserves time.

Over to you Tubes?

I always take the time to read your posts, as you are one of the minority in speaking sense.

Great post, again.

 

[Tubey]

Do you think our tactics in the first half against Watford were exactly the same as in the second half?

I do indeed - I just think we upped the tempo. The shape stayed the same (two DMs, 1 winger) and most of our impetus came because Watford scored the early goal, invited us on and countered, like every side did against us last season.

We don't control games; the opposition do. That's why we're easy to play against - an opposition lets us waddle around with the ball at 70% possession, dispossess us when we get near their penalty box, counter, score.

The only tactical change I saw was bringing on Kone to give us two strikers late on as a desperate measure for an equaliser. And wouldn't you know it, it worked - because the opposition had to deal with something slightly different.

Doing that with 10 minutes left isn't good enough though. The lack of Plan B with Martinez isn't about pointing out isolated incidents in the odd match; it's how he sets up for any given game. The only time he's done something different has been player or crowd led, such as against Kiev and Newcastle last season - and in both of those games we actually started the game according to the Martinez script.

 

[MikeH72]

Jose Mourinho is a world class manager. Roberto is still learning his trade. Hardly a fair or even comparison.

Martinez has been managing for nearly 10 years, how long does it take a manager to "learn their trade" ffs?

 

[mkrudden]

I always take the time to read your posts, as you are one of the minority in speaking sense.

Great post, again.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic mate, but i'll take it nonetheless

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

lol I hope we sign him just for your reaction mate.

Mate, I will go BONANZA

 

[Kiwi]

Martinez has been managing for nearly 10 years, how long does it take a manager to "learn their trade" ffs?

For the first time last year he had to juggle the squad rotation that Europe requires.
He's dealing with the pressures of underperforming for the first time too as well as a fanbase desperate for success and unhappy with how the team has been playing

Valuable experiences that he's only acquiring now.

 

[MikeH72]

For the first time last year he had to juggle the squad rotation that Europe requires.
He's dealing with the pressures of underperforming for the first time too as well as a fanbase desperate for success and unhappy with how the team has been playing

Valuable experiences that he's only acquiring now.

In 10 years though he should have learned another formation other than 4-2-3-1 with 2 defensive midfielders

 

[Kiwi]

In 10 years though he should have learned another formation other than 4-2-3-1 with 2 defensive midfielders

He has mate. We've seen 4-3-3 in preseason and 4-4-2 when Kone came on.
His Wigan teams were notable for deploying a tactical switch to a 3-5-2.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic mate, but i'll take it nonetheless

Not sarcastic mate!

 

[Dithering Dougie]

I do indeed - I just think we upped the tempo. The shape stayed the same (two DMs, 1 winger) and most of our impetus came because Watford scored the early goal, invited us on and countered, like every side did against us last season.

We don't control games; the opposition do. That's why we're easy to play against - an opposition lets us waddle around with the ball at 70% possession, dispossess us when we get near their penalty box, counter, score.

The only tactical change I saw was bringing on Kone to give us two strikers late on as a desperate measure for an equaliser. And wouldn't you know it, it worked - because the opposition had to deal with something slightly different.

Doing that with 10 minutes left isn't good enough though. The lack of Plan B with Martinez isn't about pointing out isolated incidents in the odd match; it's how he sets up for any given game. The only time he's done something different has been player or crowd led, such as against Kiev and Newcastle last season - and in both of those games we actually started the game according to the Martinez script.

Tubey did you miss the radical move when our leftback went off on the hour mark for a forward?

Or the amount of crosses and long balls we played in the second half, the crosses in particular being very out of character from what we previously saw last season.

Those subtle changes did go missing last season but considering our general poor form it was kind of inevitable Martinez wasn't going to be so radical when we're playing poorly and confidence is low, but in his first season and during his time with Wigan Martinez was renowned for trying to do something different tactically.

 

[Carlito]

I see some people are now labelling him with the dithering stuff Moyes got.

Maybe, just maybe it's due to our current and previous manager not getting backed by the current custodians of the club.

I think some of the vitriol Roberto gets should be directed at the board. It's like people forget we went about 5 transfer Windows without making a significant signing and had a firesale at the end of it.

Doesn't help a manager's cause when he's at pains to praise the chairman at every opportunity, as has been the case with both Moyes and Martinez.