Roberto Martinez discussion

[chazzle_dazzle]

To be fair Rom upped his game even more after the penno.

One run in particular he brushed defenders off the ball as if they were flies and it took a tasty save from Adrian to stop him scoring.

Yep like i say i could understand it denting Lukaku's confidence - it never, thats not the reason for the loss.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

]
[


Tbf mate, I do think RM tried to shut up shop. It's just that Niasse for Lennon was his way of doing it, which is mental.

Yeah i think thats my point. Martinez way of doing it was to bring on another attacker - which underlines his attacking mindset as a manager.

He is set in his way there with that, and that is the massive hole in his skill set as a manager, he can't see the balance needed.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Well, we can all play the 'last seven seasons' for this and 'last three seasons' for that game and make a point of sorts. Fundamentally we are a middling PL club - nowhere near the elite, but nowhere near relegation fodder. Right slap bang in the middle on a sliding scal that goes from 6th or 7th to 10th/11th.

We have a reasonable but average type of spend and we tread water for the most part. I mean, if that isn't true, why is there excitement about the Moshiri deal taking us to the next level?



You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it. It's just nonsensical as an argument to try and unpick that season and say it fell short - Martinez squeezed that season dry and got a total that in many other seasons was a CL spot nailed on.

Maybe you wont see it as an achievement, but more level heads unaffected by forum fever will.



More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

Bloody hell! That was quick dave.

 

[LAToffee]

I

When we missed the Pen we as fans didn't think oh that's it now, we are going to lose, 2-0 up in command all game West Ham had created nothing up to then.

The Pen was a bonus, icing on the cake if scored, missing it should not have mattered, it's crazy to think otherwise.

i did and it turns out I was right

 

[willo30]

We were down to 10 men, so it would have made more sense to park the bus at 2-0.

Not just this game as well. Chelsea Bouremouth at 2-0 Stoke when leading. We don't know how to change our style to see a game out. He leaves it as it is and because our tempo is so high we tire late on. We are great to watch but only for about 80 minutes at the moment. Are the players unfit or is too much to ask for them to do it for 90 minutes week in week out. The fact we so good for the rest of the game I would go for the latter.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

And for balance to this - overseen them getting relegated.... not all rosy, wonder which one the Wigan fans would prefer now.

 

[Efcjake]

Well, we can all play the 'last seven seasons' for this and 'last three seasons' for that game and make a point of sorts. Fundamentally we are a middling PL club - nowhere near the elite, but nowhere near relegation fodder. Right slap bang in the middle on a sliding scal that goes from 6th or 7th to 10th/11th.

We have a reasonable but average type of spend and we tread water for the most part. I mean, if that isn't true, why is there excitement about the Moshiri deal taking us to the next level?



You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it. It's just nonsensical as an argument to try and unpick that season and say it fell short - Martinez squeezed that season dry and got a total that in many other seasons was a CL spot nailed on.

Maybe you wont see it as an achievement, but more level heads unaffected by forum fever will.



More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

...Bit let down here by your response davek.

We're a middling club, but recent trends indicate us slipping further down.

I agree that nobody can take the best points finish in the prem away from him, but as the saying goes, "What have you done for me lately?". I'm not entirely convinced that was all Martinez' doing, and if you were then you should be criticising him for his failures presently as freely as you are to praise him for his work two seasons ago. He can't take the plaudits when we're successful but then be held up on a pillar when we aren't.

The feller's built a PL club from ashes

EH?? Which club are you talking about there?

 

[BlueToff]

Not just this game as well. Chelsea Bouremouth at 2-0 Stoke when leading. We don't know how to change our style to see a game out. He leaves it as it is and because our tempo is so high we tire late on. We are great to watch but only for about 80 minutes at the moment. Are the players unfit or is too much to ask for them to do it for 90 minutes week in week out. The fact we so good for the rest of the game I would go for the latter.

Tbf again if we had had 11 men at the weekend tiredness wouldn't have been an issue.

We actually come strong late on in a lot of games. If anything our problem is our defence sits too deep and teams lump crosses in and we can't defend them. A time we did come out and play an offside trap that worked the linesman didn't do his job and it cost us three points.

We need to learn how to just keep possession and keep ticking it over - like we showed we can do vs City at home in the league cup and Bournemouth away in the FA Cup.

Do that, and learn how to defend crosses, and we've cracked it.

 

[BlueToff]

And for balance to this - overseen them getting relegated.... not all rosy, wonder which one the Wigan fans would prefer now.

It isn't RM's fault they made a huge mess of themselves in the Champ mate.

I remember at the time a lot of Wigan fans saying they'd had rather won the FA Cup than just spend the next year scrapping against relegation.

 

[BlueToff]

...Bit let down here by your response davek.

We're a middling club, but recent trends indicate us slipping further down.

I agree that nobody can take the best points finish in the prem away from him, but as the saying goes, "What have you done for me lately?". I'm not entirely convinced that was all Martinez' doing, and if you were then you should be criticising him for his failures presently as freely as you are to praise him for his work two seasons ago. He can't take the plaudits when we're successful but then be held up on a pillar when we aren't.




EH?? Which club are you talking about there?

I'm guessing he means Swansea mate

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

It isn't RM's fault they made a huge mess of themselves in the Champ mate.

I remember at the time a lot of Wigan fans saying they'd had rather won the FA Cup than just spend the next year scrapping against relegation.

Didn't say it was.... the lads i work with that are wigan fans would rather be playing in the premier league against top players then the little stint in Europe they had and being where they are now.

I think my whole point was, there isn't a lot of balance to some peoples posts in this place - there is a lot of stats and numbers thrown around to support arguments but people don't ever want to look at the flip side of the coin at the same time.

for every 72 point argument there is one which counteracts it, for every FA cup with argument there is a relegation.

If people considered the coin on both sides debate on here would be a little more healthier instead of depending into madness.

 

[Efcjake]

When we missed the Pen we as fans didn't think oh that's it now, we are going to lose, 2-0 up in command all game West Ham had created nothing up to then.

The Pen was a bonus, icing on the cake if scored, missing it should not have mattered, it's crazy to think otherwise.

Quint, we've been up by 2 or 3 goals and still thrown points away this season. There was no guaranteed win at 2-0, and if you felt like the game was won at that point then you were proven a fool by what happened.

This capitulation mentality has been apparent since last year, being a man down and missing a penalty was just adding the fuel to the fire.

At the end of the day though it is unfair to pin it on that one moment. I'm still blaming Kev for being a knob and putting the unnecessary tackle in.

 

[Efcjake]

I'm guessing he means Swansea mate

Oh aye, I'll give him that one.

Still though, doing the business in the lower leagues is not an indicator of being a success at this level.

 

[BlueToff]

Didn't say it was.... the lads i work with that are wigan fans would rather be playing in the premier league against top players then the little stint in Europe they had and being where they are now.

I think my whole point was, there isn't a lot of balance to some peoples posts in this place - there is a lot of stats and numbers thrown around to support arguments but people don't ever want to look at the flip side of the coin at the same time.

for every 72 point argument there is one which counteracts it, for every FA cup with argument there is a relegation.

If people considered the coin on both sides debate on here would be a little more healthier instead of depending into madness.

But it's not about Europe? It's about the fact that he won a cup with the club in the Prem with the smallest budget and smallest fanbase and a cup that Wigan may not win again in their history.

They can always have a better chance of getting promotion back to the Prem mate but the FA Cup is something special.

But yeh I agree on the balance - and it's the same for both sides of the argument.

This time last week I was firmly behind RM. Saturday annoyed me greatly because he conspired to mess it up (or at least played a large factor in it), and I'm now not as behind him as I was, but still think he should get until the end of the season before being fully judged.

 

[UpperLeftBlue]

Well, we can all play the 'last seven seasons' for this and 'last three seasons' for that game and make a point of sorts. Fundamentally we are a middling PL club - nowhere near the elite, but nowhere near relegation fodder. Right slap bang in the middle on a sliding scal that goes from 6th or 7th to 10th/11th.

We have a reasonable but average type of spend and we tread water for the most part. I mean, if that isn't true, why is there excitement about the Moshiri deal taking us to the next level?



You see, this is why I cant take these attacks on Martinez seriously. Even a season that saw him smash through our PL points total record by 7 clear points you find room to attempt to belittle it. It's just nonsensical as an argument to try and unpick that season and say it fell short - Martinez squeezed that season dry and got a total that in many other seasons was a CL spot nailed on.

Maybe you wont see it as an achievement, but more level heads unaffected by forum fever will.



More style than substance. The feller's built a PL club from ashes and put the most prestigious domestic cup in world football in a trophy cabinet belonging to a gang of pie eaters. Maybe that's not substantial enough and we should have one of the new flavours in who had half a good PL season or managed a team in the white heat of the Eridivise or Ligue 1.

Davek, seems to me that level headed here means that they agree with you. When you say that there isn't a significant difference between finishing 6th and 11th, it looks like you've lost it. 6th is a) top half, b) worth 4 million more in prize money, c) within grasp of european spots. I don't want to compare to Moyes, rather compare where we stand now to where we were before RM. Despite some very promising players and exciting football, we have gone backwards with Martinez at the helm. Despite having a whole team of international footballers and some of the most promising young talent in Europe at his disposal Martinz has managed to have the worst defensive record in the league, hell in Europe. I don't understand how one 5th place finish with record points has bought him this much loyalty from you. He has bottled every important match for this club to date and when we lose on the back of another brilliant performance with 10 minutes of capitulation, I expect to see him gone.