Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

Still the same circular argument with various nuances and no one changing their mind.

And an Everton manager that's not going anywhere for at least a few months.

I suggested a few days ago that the thread is one that should be opened for 48 hours after each match and then shut again. It really should just be about pointing out performance in each game we have and not some catch all thread for an obsessed group of lost souls who petition at every turn for a dismissal that isn't coming anytime soon.

The feller's doing a decent job and should be left to get on with it. There's no need for the constant referendum. Ginger bollocks never had to put up with it...and he was friggin hopeless.

 

[BlueToff]

So the 'only' teams you can remember you can remember having a go are 5 of the 13 teams we've played? And that isn't including Watford and Chelsea, who both had more shots than we did in the games against them, or Sunderland, who could easily have scored 6 themselves on another day, or Palace (who actually had 14 shots rather than 5). Interesting. Completely wrong, but interesting.

And we've scored goals in all of the games that teams have come out and come at us, and created loads of chances.

Fair play if I'm wrong, but I can't remember Howard ever been tested by any shots from Palace. Sunderland were unlucky with the shot that hit the post but they were far from ever being able to get six.

Just like you said multiple times about our game vs West Brom, we had what 34 shots? As you said multiple times, we only had 8 that tested the keeper...

I wouldn't say we've actually deserved anything less than a win against the five teams I listed above, is probably the point I should have made.

 

[davek]

I'm actually lost as to your argument now.

Is it EVERTON you are championing or is it TEAM DAVEK?
Everything you seem to post now is to try and back up your arguments. YOUR arguments, not any of the seemingly obvious problems that the likes of @BlueToff can also see. You are so one dimensional in your opinions that it must be team davek all the way for you.

I back the manager because he's doing a good job. He's transformed the way we play from something that was an embarrassment to something that has style and some substance.

He has a contract until 2019 I believe, and if we add the results next season to the performance then he'll see that out. The only thing that will cut across that inevitable path is if there's a takeover and the new owners have lots of money to spend and want their own man in. That, IMO, is a very remote possibility.

Just get behind an Everton manager trying to build a team that befits our traditions. Not that hard to do really. You'd think the feller was serving up utter muck instead of the best footy we've seen for 20 years.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

I suggested a few days ago that the thread is one that should be opened for 48 hours after each match and then shut again. It really should just be about pointing out performance in each game we have and not some catch all thread for an obsessed group of lost souls who petition at every turn for a dismissal that isn't coming anytime soon.

The feller's doing a decent job and should be left to get on with it. There's no need for the constant referendum. Ginger bollocks never had to put up with it...and he was friggin hopeless.

Isn't that just the match thread though mate, think this thread has legs for being open providing the debate is sound.

A lot of what's been said and going round in circles hasn't been though, from both sides of the fence. Nothing wrong with a good debate about the manager not everyone is going to be pleased, like from the sounds of it you didnt like Moyes.

 

[MikeH72]

The players cannot fail to be affected. As the game wears on they get hounded out of their rhythm and lose composure.



You win games like we did in the first season and then that pacifies a crowd. If you remember though, in that first season, there was a lot of early draws and there was murmuring of unrest even as early as the early Autumn of 2013. So basically, the ultimate answer to your question about how we overcome this is to change the culture of the fan watching: to get their appreciation of a different way of playing to the semi-agricultural stuff served up in the recent past. I said from day one when Martinez arrived that his biggest task would be overcoming that route one mentality that Goodison had of late been weaned on.



Yes, it's happened a lot that lately hasn't it?
They buy into Martinez. Unless one has an unbelievable Euros and the fee goes up to £50M+ they wont be leaving.



The fans aren't customers they're supporters. They're entitled to frig off if they dont like it.

It hasn't happened a lot because we haven't had consecutive mid table/bottom half finishes for god knows how long

 

[Brendan Janus]

I want us to win & I couldn't care less how we do it !!

 

[Lanolin]

And we've scored goals in all of the games that teams have come out and come at us, and created loads of chances.

Fair play if I'm wrong, but I can't remember Howard ever been tested by any shots from Palace. Sunderland were unlucky with the shot that hit the post but they were far from ever being able to get six.

Just like you said multiple times about our game vs West Brom, we had what 34 shots? As you said multiple times, we only had 8 that tested the keeper...

I wouldn't say we've actually deserved anything less than a win against the five teams I listed above.

But i'm only using your argument back at you to highlight how it doesn't work. You can't say we had loads of shots so deserved to win, they had loads of shots but deserve nothing.

The point wasn't about defending or deserving a win, it was about luck. You were saying teams seem to come to Goodison, have one shot and it goes in. I'm pointing out that is totally incorrect, because teams are coming and having plenty of shots in a number of games. I don't dispute for a second that we deserved to beat Chelsea or Sunderland, or that we probably just about deserved wins against Liverpool and Palace that we didn't get. But then we got lucky against Spurs, and i would say against Watford too.

By the way, you must have had your eyes closed in the Sunderland game. They hit the post twice and had NINE other shots on target. More than we had in the fabled 'Great West Brom massacre of 2016'.

 

[BlueToff]

I don't care what formation he plays to be honest, its only a small part of the defensive problem. Its entirely about going for the ball when we don't have it.. We simply don't do it.

We also don't track opponents when they attack.. why?

So many games we have been countered against by maybe 2 players, one will run and run and run at us as we back off and back off and back off.. then he'll cross to the other player who despite us having 6 players back and fairly near him, will have plenty of time and space to get the ball, put it on the deck and return the pass or get a shot away. Its utterly ridiculous. And its every game.

That has happened a lot less when McCarthy has been back. Also stopped happening when Besic came in (for the most part).

Also, the pressing game is fine but it's mainly about right place on the pitch and time.

You can't always be sending two players to the ball in the PL down to the intensity of it - look at the issues Klopp has had. The pressing needs to be done when a player is in 5 yards of the ball - that's when we should be swamping opposition players,

 

[bluewally]

They buy into Martinez.

Is that why stones handed in a transfer request?

 

[MikeH72]

Honestly, it's the blue netting's fault. We've been mostly rubbish every season we've had it, and were amazing at home that random season we had the white netting back. Where's the white net money Bill?

 

[willo30]

I back the manager because he's doing a good job. He's transformed the way we play from something that was an embarrassment to something that has style and some substance.

He has a contract until 2019 I believe, and if we add the results next season to the performance then he'll see that out. The only thing that will cut across that inevitable path is if there's a takeover and the new owners have lots of money to spend and want their own man in. That, IMO, is a very remote possibility.

Just get behind an Everton manager trying to build a team that befits our traditions. Not that hard to do really. You'd think the feller was serving up utter muck instead of the best footy we've seen for 20 years.

That's your opinion (not fact).

My opinion (not fact) is that he is not a manager. He's a great attacking coach and has an eye for a player. He is missing parts from his game that he either thinks he doesn't need or is too stubborn to sort it.

You also point to being better the last 5 games but this has been said a few times over the last 18 months when it looked like we were turning corner only to go back to square one.

My overall opinion of him is he tries to do it his way until it gets to a point he has to change it to get results. He will then revert back to type when the chance arises though.

 

[BlueToff]

But i'm only using your argument back at you to highlight how it doesn't work. You can't say we had loads of shots so deserved to win, they had loads of shots but deserve nothing.

The point wasn't about defending or deserving a win, it was about luck. You were saying teams seem to come to Goodison, have one shot and it goes in. I'm pointing out that is totally incorrect, because teams are coming and having plenty of shots in a number of games. I don't dispute for a second that we deserved to beat Chelsea or Sunderland, or that we probably just about deserved wins against Liverpool and Palace that we didn't get. But then we got lucky against Spurs, and i would say against Watford too.

By the way, you must have had your eyes closed in the Sunderland game. They hit the post twice and had NINE other shots on target. More than we had in the fabled 'Great West Brom massacre of 2016'.

But of those nine shots on target, Howard was forced into one decent save at the very start. Two went in. The other six were genuine pot shots that didn't trouble even Howard.

No I wasn't saying that. I was saying our problem is conceding soft goals, whilst also pointing out that for all of this argument that 'we struggle to break teams down' we don't at all - as we still create a lot of chances.

As much as defending is vitally important, RM is right in that a clean sheet doesn't win you a game. You have to score goals. We've created a hell of a lot this season yet haven't always rewarded ourselves for that with simple goals. We sort that out we win more, simple.

 

[BlueToff]

Is that why stones handed in a transfer request?

What an irrelevant point.

He handed in a transfer request because he was being offered trebble his wages to go to the current champions.

 

[Lanolin]

But of those nine shots on target, Howard was forced into one decent save at the very start. Two went in. The other six were genuine pot shots that didn't trouble even Howard.

No I wasn't saying that. I was saying our problem is conceding soft goals, whilst also pointing out that for all of this argument that 'we struggle to break teams down' we don't at all - as we still create a lot of chances.

As much as defending is vitally important, RM is right in that a clean sheet doesn't win you a game. You have to score goals. We've created a hell of a lot this season yet haven't always rewarded ourselves for that with simple goals. We sort that out we win more, simple.

'Watmore gets clear through on goal, but tries to lift the ball over Howard, who stands tall and palms the ball away. For all their defensive woes, Sunderland have had lots of chances to score today. A moment later, Howard makes two more saves, with Defoe and Larsson both trying their luck. After a poor performance last week, Howard has been excellent.'

That's a quote from the very first match report that came up on google. Lots of chances, Howard excellent. Doesn't sound like there were a load of pot shots that didn't trouble him. But hey, you know best. We dominate every game from start to finish and only fail to win due to some sort of curse. Got it.

 

[4737carlin]

That's your opinion (not fact).

My opinion (not fact) is that he is not a manager. He's a great attacking coach and has an eye for a player. He is missing parts from his game that he either thinks he doesn't need or is too stubborn to sort it.

You also point to being better the last 5 games but this has been said a few times over the last 18 months when it looked like we were turning corner only to go back to square one.

My overall opinion of him is he tries to do it his way until it gets to a point he has to change it to get results. He will then revert back to type when the chance arises though.

Bang on! I agree on the bit about him not being a manager, he has blagged and charmed his way into the roll but will never be anything more than a good coach, an assistant should be his role, assistant to someone who can deal with all areas of management not just one or two.