Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lanolin]

Just on this, little bit of a bug bear of mine that Martinez has this used as an argument against him.

Just because McCarthy starts a game doesn't always necessarily mean that we play with two defensive midfielders - the shape varies with him either playing alongside Barry or more advanced alongside Barkley in a 433 with Barry sitting.

We've actually played a 433 rather than a 4231 on a number of occasions this season (and we did last season too).

Liverpool at home, Palace at home, Norwich away, Leicester at home, Newcastle away, Stoke at home and the first half of Spurs at home.

One win, 3 draws and two defeats in those games. There may have been others as well, but those 6 and a half were most definitely not the two defensive midfielder set-ups. Truthfully, I think the formation thing is a red herring - there's no discernible improvement in the results when we vary the shape.

I don't really think whether McCarthy plays right next to Barry or slightly ahead of him changes the fact that he is ostensibly defensive minded. He might get forward because he has a decent engine but his passing range is limited, he can only run forward in straight lines and his shooting is somewhere south of woeful. That's not supposed to be a criticism by the way, he's good at what he does, but he offers little in an attacking sense.

Going back to Martinez's first season, I was banging the drum for a deep lying playmaker in one of those central roles. I still think that's what we need, someone who can put their foot in and cover ground, but who has a litle bit more creativity to their game than Barry and McCarthy. When teams do park the bus against us we tend to find McCarthy shuffling the ball backwards and sideways and Barry chipping balls forward in an attempt to do something constructive. Even Gibson, who is no world beater, has shown in his fleeting appearances that the ability to play early, well weighted forward passes opens teams up much more than the others can.

 

[BlueToff]

Sorry, but that's plain wrong. Of the three managers you mentioned there, we didn't play with two defensive midfielders in two of those games

When McCarthy got injured at Bournemouth we actually played 4-1-4-1 for the rest of the games up until and after Christmas.

Howard

Coleman - Stones - Mori - Baines

Barry

Del - Cleverley - Barkley - Kone

Lukaku

At that point we also saw a drop in form of Barkley, who was having to sit deeper due to covering for Barry and also had less space going forward with Cleverley there.

We won one game in that run of playing that system.

 

[BlueToff]

I don't really think whether McCarthy plays right next to Barry or slightly ahead of him changes the fact that he is ostensibly defensive minded. He might get forward because he has a decent engine but his passing range is limited, he can only run forward in straight lines and his shooting is somewhere south of woeful. That's not supposed to be a criticism by the way, he's good at what he does, but he offers little in an attacking sense.

Going back to Martinez's first season, I was banging the drum for a deep lying playmaker in one of those central roles. I still think that's what we need, someone who can put their foot in and cover ground, but who has a litle bit more creativity to their game than Barry and McCarthy. When teams do park the bus against us we tend to find McCarthy shuffling the ball backwards and sideways and Barry chipping balls forward in an attempt to do something constructive. Even Gibson, who is no world beater, has shown in his fleeting appearances that the ability to play early, well weighted forward passes opens teams up much more than the others can.

I think Besic has shown that as well when he's been fit.

Thing is with Gibbo is he can put in a decent performance but at the same time you can't rely on him to keep fit (not his fault 100%). But your point is a good one.

 

[oldblue]

I personally think our performances are 100x better than last season. Last season I was coming away from games thinking we were awful and couldn't see where our results were going to come from, this season I've come away from plenty of games thinking how on earth did we not win there?

Our results are (slightly) better than last year and for a few minor tweaks/individual errors etc they'd be much better. I feel like we're close to getting it right and there is plenty about our team to get excited about. That's why I'm giving him longer now.

I completely agree with this. I think it was boxing day before last that it felt like we had nothing to build on, no movement, no ideas. There really aren't performances like that any more. People keep talking about progress as though teams have this logical and calculated improvement in results. I've never known things turn round that way. I think you just suddenly see partnerships working and players believing they can win. Can look like it happens very suddenly in terms of results but it's usually just that the fine lines suddenly work for us.
I think we do need to vary things at home but that's partly up to maturity and confidence on the pitch.
And I do want us winning with style because that's what Everton should be.

 

[davek]

I know it's only anecdotal,but having worked for a couple of American owned companies where it is all about the results RM's record is not that of a winner, and that will see him sacked.........unless he can win the Cup and get a run of win's that sees us get a top six finish.

To be a winner in these circumstances you have to invest. Will they be prepared to bankroll it? They dont sound like they are to me. If that's the case, then winning here looks like owning the club, building up its value and then selling. And that will take a few years staying in the PL and constructing a new stadium. So, do they take a chance on their investment and roll the dice to take on a new manager who may or may not get Martinez's performances and level of results; or do they look at it and think they should leave things as they are?

All down to the level of squad investment they're prepared to put in.

IMO, they'd be nuts not to leave well alone and see how this squad develops for at least the next season.

 

[willo30]

But what formation change would make the difference?

Hughes had far from worked us out - or we wouldn't have bagged three against them.

Pardew similar - we created loads that night and didn't take our chances - just like against WBA. Got nothing to do with the formation as the players are still creating chances playing in that system. They just haven't finished them off.

Nobody is happy with our home record, but the system isn't entirely to blame when we've created so much in some of the games we've lost.

Creating means nothing if you don't get anything out of it. We were camped out in the WBA for almost 80 minutes and only got 6 shots on target. Couple hit the woodwork so that's maybe a chance every 10 minutes. Not so good when broken down to me.
Something is going wrong with only 7 wins last season and 4 this season. If it's not the players or the formation then it must be the manager. We can't keep going on like this saying the results will come because of the performances as I've not seen much to back this up.

 

[davek]

Creating means nothing if you don't get anything out of it. We were camped out in the WBA for almost 80 minutes and only got 6 shots on target. Couple hit the woodwork so that's maybe a chance every 10 minutes. Not so good when broken down to me.
Something is going wrong with only 7 wins last season and 4 this season. If it's not the players or the formation then it must be the manager. We can't keep going on like this saying the results will come because of the performances as I've not seen much to back this up.

You're comparing the whole of last season with 2/3rds of this season.

 

[willo30]

You're comparing the whole of last season with 2/3rds of this season.

Ok then at this stage last season we had 16 points from 14 games (3 wins 7 draws). This season guess what we have 16 points from 14 games (4 wins 4 draws).

Is that better?

 

[Titus Bramble]

Creating means nothing if you don't get anything out of it. We were camped out in the WBA for almost 80 minutes and only got 6 shots on target. Couple hit the woodwork so that's maybe a chance every 10 minutes. Not so good when broken down to me.
Something is going wrong with only 7 wins last season and 4 this season. If it's not the players or the formation then it must be the manager. We can't keep going on like this saying the results will come because of the performances as I've not seen much to back this up.

Agree with the bit in bold, but the manager isn't the one who puts it in the back of the net. Take Palace at home earlier in the season. Drew 1-1, ok we conceded a poor goal which the manager can be blamed on, but we hit the post/bar 4 times(?) if I remember correctly.

Some games are lost/drawn because of poor managerial decisions but some because our normally reliable goalscorer(s) couldn't quite get it right. This seasons struggles are not completely to blame on the manager imo, although ultimately he's the one who could lose his job over it

 

[BlueToff]

Creating means nothing if you don't get anything out of it. We were camped out in the WBA for almost 80 minutes and only got 6 shots on target. Couple hit the woodwork so that's maybe a chance every 10 minutes. Not so good when broken down to me.
Something is going wrong with only 7 wins last season and 4 this season. If it's not the players or the formation then it must be the manager. We can't keep going on like this saying the results will come because of the performances as I've not seen much to back this up.

If the players aren't finishing the chances, it's equally as down to them.

As @Titus Bramble has said, our defending at set pieces especially has been poor (though it has improved drastically since Joel came in...) but the players are the ones who have to finish off the chances they create.

Del put something like 20 crosses in against Palace - not the manager's fault that Rom et all never made a gamble on it.

 

[BlueToff]

Ok then at this stage last season we had 16 points from 14 games (3 wins 7 draws). This season guess what we have 16 points from 14 games (4 wins 4 draws).

Is that better?

Yep, no markable improvement. Yet. Wait and see how it turns out for the rest of the season at home. Still what, 15 points to play for at Goodison? Let's see.

 

[davek]

Ok then at this stage last season we had 16 points from 14 games (3 wins 7 draws). This season guess what we have 16 points from 14 games (4 wins 4 draws).

Is that better?

Well it's no worse, and has the possibility of being better. You just dont know.

I dont know what the fixation is with just home games. If we'd won 8 at home and none away would this be a great step forward or something?

 

[Ihaters]

4 wins out of the last five games; one goal conceded in those five games; 8 goals conceded in the last 12 games.

Good stats for any team; excellent stats for a team that's had confidence issues at the back.

I think it's fair to say we have a solid back four and a half decent GK, and if we keep playing those five and dont drop any of them because the manager tries to pacify sour faces on the bench, then we'll win a lot more games than we lose or draw between now and the season's end.

Maybe, but normally form is displayed over 6 games.. lets check the league form : D,D,L,W,W,L and that's pretty much our best form this season.

Add the cup games and it looks better: L,W,W,W,L,W but its the league form people are frustrated over.

I agree about us improving, but it needs to continue for a lot longer before he's done anything but continue to underachieve over the course of the season.

Those stats you post are what we want to see, its what we used to see, its what Martinez took away from us in place of goals.. if brings it back and keeps us scoring then he will become a legend of a manager.

 

[Lanolin]

Agree with the bit in bold, but the manager isn't the one who puts it in the back of the net. Take Palace at home earlier in the season. Drew 1-1, ok we conceded a poor goal which the manager can be blamed on, but we hit the post/bar 4 times(?) if I remember correctly.

Some games are lost/drawn because of poor managerial decisions but some because our normally reliable goalscorer(s) couldn't quite get it right. This seasons struggles are not completely to blame on the manager imo, although ultimately he's the one who could lose his job over it

I don't think any teams problems are ever completely down to the manager. Even if I was the manager I would expect a minimum level of effort and ability to be shown which should be enough to win a number of games, and there's no doubt the players have to shoulder a lot of blame when things don't go our way.

I think the other point you make is evened out over the season though. The striker has an off day every now and again where he doesn't score but then he'll have days where he gets very little service but manages to make something for himself and bury a half chance against the run of play. Swings and roundabouts and not a justification for poor results.

 

[willo30]

If the players aren't finishing the chances, it's equally as down to them.

As @Titus Bramble has said, our defending at set pieces especially has been poor (though it has improved drastically since Joel came in...) but the players are the ones who have to finish off the chances they create.

Del put something like 20 crosses in against Palace - not the manager's fault that Rom et all never made a gamble on it.

The manager has to take the blame. You see 27 goals scored at home this season (the total for last) proves the attackers are doing their job and everything looks rosy. You then see we have conceded 23 (more than the total for last), the worst in the league then something doesn't add up.