Roberto Martinez discussion

[toffeejack]

I can see where he is coming from in theory with regards to Howards experience.
With Jags and Baines out and possibly Coleman too that leaves us with a very inexperienced backline of Browning Stones FM and Galloway. You could argue Howards experience is crucial is keeping them playing together well with cohesion. That said I still think Joel is who we should pick to play.

the thing is, he's wrong because joel was MOM a few days ago with that almost exact same back 4. Howard looks lost with a better defensive line-up.

 

[By god I'm blue]

How can you claim our form is mid table and going backwards since 2014-15 one minute and then say this season has seen an improvement? That makes no sense at all. - Because last season we finished mid table and we also currently sit....wait for it.....mid table....I am saying there has been a bit of an improvement in the style of play this season, how can you not get that?

As for the "grim" results we've only lost 3 times so far and those defeats were to teams that most people will expect to contend for the league title, and it was only against Utd that we were convincingly beaten on what was a very emotional day for the club. Looking at the run of games we've had and the injuries so far it's been a decent start, far from grim, and we've built a steady platform to progress from. - Howard saved us at Spurs, we drew with Watford at home, take the Chelsea and Saints results out and I see little else to get excited about just yet.

I also can't see how on the one hand you say 2013/14 is a distant memory that he can't dine out on forever and then beat him over the head with last season? Last season alone isn't a true representation of Martinez's time with us to date, it's just a convenient stick to beat him with that suits your agenda. - I don't have an agenda mate, don't start all that piffle. I just think the team are performing below their capabilities and have been doing so for 12 months now.

Of course it could be better but like you've said we're improving and like you've acknowledge we've a young team, these things never happen over night and for a club of our means we need an organic process if we want to improve and that means giving the manager time and not setting arbitrary deadlines like Sunday's game to stop backing the manager. - I have not said I would stop backing him, I am saying we really need to be winning games like this and Sunday is a good place to start

 

[WarringtonBlue]

Can't believe people are saying the wins against Southampton and Chelsea were flukes. We specifically set up in ways to exploit their weaknesses and defensively stifle them and it worked

 

[By god I'm blue]

Can't believe people are saying the wins against Southampton and Chelsea were flukes. We specifically set up in ways to exploit their weaknesses and defensively stifle them and it worked

Show me where somebody said it was a fluke?

 

[chippy1722]

Can't believe people are saying the wins against Southampton and Chelsea were flukes. We specifically set up in ways to exploit their weaknesses and defensively stifle them and it worked

They weren't flukes but as this season has so far shown, they aren't as impressive as they sound. Southampton and Chelsea are average this season. I'll be just as happy if we can beat Sunderland, now Fat Sam is in charge.

 

[Khalekan]

I think the manager probably knows he has a problem with the goalkeeper but feels his hands are tied just at the moment.
We are still a full two months away from the next transfer window. We will be missing our most experienced defender and captain for all of that time. I wonder how Tim Howard would react to being dropped , possibly not well, and that could leave the manager with a relatively untested keeper in goals and Tim Howard possibly causing friction in the background.
I would say that Tim Howard is one of the leaders in the dressing room , RM has already more or less stated this. I think that either in January, but more likely in the summer, he will be moved out of the club altogether and away from having an influence at the club.

If I thought for one moment anything about that scenario was behind Bobby's reasoning for keeping Tim between the sticks then I would immediately join the ranks of the plotters and call for his head.

I think the reason Bobby keeps playing Howard is that he doesn't trust Joel as first choice.

The goalkeeping crisis is to do with Bobby's opinion of Joel, not Tim.

Simple as.

But if he thought for one moment Joel was the better option them it is he who would be on the pitch on Sunderland.

 

[riddick]

If I thought for one moment anything about that scenario was behind Bobby's reasoning for keeping Tim between the sticks then I would immediately join the ranks of the plotters and call for his head.

I think the reason Bobby keeps playing Howard is that he doesn't trust Joel as first choice.

The goalkeeping crisis is to do with Bobby's opinion of Joel, not Tim.

Simple as.

But if he thought for one moment Joel was the better option them it is he who would be on the pitch on Sunderland.

He's said for this game that 'its not the individual performance that matters, its the experience'. He's all but said right there that Joel is better than Howard but, with such an inexperienced side, he's looking for Howard to be that calming influence.


Which he's just about never been.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

"He's rubbish, but he yells out instructions and positive vibes" comes to mind...

Phil Neville was the same but he gets nothing but abuse, yet Da-vek thinks its okay for Howard to do the same and it makes sense.
If I was playing in the Everton back line, I would be more confident with Robles behind me than Tim at the moment.

 

[By god I'm blue]

They weren't flukes but as this season has so far shown, they aren't as impressive as they sound. Southampton and Chelsea are average this season. I'll be just as happy if we can beat Sunderland, now Fat Sam is in charge.

Southampton have improved massively in the last few weeks, they are a decent side. Chelsea can't be bad forever......hope they can though

 

[royvernon39]

But if he thought for one moment Joel was the better option them it is he who would be on the pitch on Sunderland.

Not necesarily. There may be other factors that we know nothing about. But because RM is all about positivism he will always speak with a forked tongue.

I would say that few if anybody thinks Howard is playing well. Robles played well the other night, looked as if he was in charge, and the body language with the rest of the team was good. I have just re-watched the Arsenal game and Howard was utter crap and I failed to notice how poor his kicking was.

If Taleban Tim plays on sunday and repeats that awful Sunderland cock-up of two seasons ago then the pressure will be right on RM.

 

[Khalekan]

He's said for this game that 'its not the individual performance that matters, its the experience'. He's all but said right there that Joel is better than Howard but, with such an inexperienced side, he's looking for Howard to be that calming influence.


Which he's just about never been.

Bobby is nowt if not a spin doctor,

There is nothing would settle an inexperienced defence as much as a goalkeeper they trusted in absolutely minding their backs.

They don't have that and thise lids know that even better than any of us do.

This is why I believe Bobby does not have faith in Joel and why he continues with a man in goal whom is doing the very opposite of re-assuring the defenders in front of him.

And just in case there is any misconception here.....I am not defending Bibby's decision to keep Hiward in goal.

It mystifies me and I reckon Joel should be on come Sunday.

I am just looking for a bit of rationale......because I sure as heck don't buy that gobbledegook about keeping Howard in because his defence is inexperienced

 

[royvernon39]

Experience means sod all if you are too afraid to come off your line.

 

[catcherintherye]

Think there's elements of this that are a bit harsh. Firstly with Moyes' time at Utd, compare it with LVG's. The media pressure on Moyes was unbelievable 'this squad are title winners only the title will do, you have to play the United way 442 with wingers, keep things as they are, you need to keep RVP and Rooney satisfied, you've got to play youth players that's the United tradition, the money is there but we will never overspend if there is no value.' How could he put his own mark on that? It wasn't even his philosophy of playing. When he reverted to 4231 around Christmas with Januzaj and Mata he actually got some decent results but got slammed for it because RVP was out. Not to mention that the likes of Ferdinand Vidic and RVP downed tools for him in a way that Rooney Welbeck and Januzaj didn't. Moyes wanted Bale Herrera Kroos, the board didn't deliver any of them apart from a reserve youth left back. He then panic bought Fellaini as Woodward bungled his targets.

Compare with what LVG got, a media saying 'this squad is rubbish and needs a clear out, top 4 is a good finish now, United need investment, it's time for a new approach'. So LVG sells off almost the entire squad including RVP, Evra and other older players he saw as not his players, and also pushed out Welbeck, Cleverley and Januzaj (so much for keeping the United way). Woodward desperate to atone for the summer before splashed out eye watering amounts on Di Maria Blind Rojo Shaw Herrera Falcao. Van Gaal then got to instill his own philosophy ( as far removed from Ferguson's as is probably possible) and scraped to fourth (largely thanks to a Suarezless Liverpool) on the back of a run of decent performances where Fellaini and Mata were his best players (Moyes' buys!) along with Herrera (a Moyes target).

I honestly think if LVG had followed Ferguson with those limitations then he would have met a similar fate. Moyes with a remit to do what he wanted and spend whatever he wanted with a group of now humbled players would probably have got top 4 playing his way (last year was an easy year for top 4) and he'd still be the manager now.

As often was the case with Motes he was not very lucky and the timing was wrong.

My one dark cloud against him ha his comments on Baines and Fellaini, no need for them. This idea that he didn't work for Evertob towards the end though is baffling. His 07-09 team was ruthlessly stripped apart and from scratch he sold Rodwell and started a painful process of rebuilding us, Gibson, Jelavic, Oviedo, Naismith, Mirallas all came in and the turnaround was very quick, we were back in cup semi finals and pushing Europe within a season. He then went and brought in Stones whilst continuing to give the likes of Barkley game time. Our home record in his final season was fantastic and the team was playing great stuff. Does this look like a manager who only worked for himself and wasn't bothered about the future of the football club?

Yes I think that's a good post and there's a lot on that.

I think the attitude towards Moyes and Van Gaal belies a wider hypocrisy and snobbery of premier league football. Having selected Moyes it would seem ridiculous to me they sacked him off. Compared to Van Gaal he did in many ways much better. Yes Van Gaal finished 4th not 7th (only a few points higher mind) but like Moyes in the league was miles off the pace. In the cup competitions Moyes got to the semi final of the league Cup. Van Gaal got nowhere near a Semi final. Moyes also got them quite far in the Champions league, and went out to Bayern which there is no shame in.

Moyes also had players like Ferdinand undermining him and generally being a knob. I think that layer had to be moved on, Having done that it would seem silly to bin him. The fan fare around Van Gaal is majorly annoying. His signings have been poor and the best signings he had were the ones Moyes identified. Herrera is a fantastic player and had Moyes been able to get him who knows if things would have been different. Likewise Shaw looked very good this season and Mata has done very well. Show boat players like Depay and Di Maria haven't cut it by comparison.

Had Moyes had the money Van Gaal had I don't see how he'd have done any worse, lets put it that way.

I agree with you entirely about him comments re Baines/Fellaini. I think there was a lot of good will towards him at that point. It stunk of your ex trying to needlessly run your nose in it after an amicable split. Making a comment about your new girlfriend that she is ugly enough to be with you on social media or whatever. There was no need for it and I think a lot of people relished his demise after that. It was a great shame and out of character. I think he was trying to show he was a big manager with a big ego to fill United at that point. The problem is he isn't a big character, with a big ego and it just looked completely stupid. I think a lot of fans turned on him then.

Me I felt saddened by what happened at United. Watching Liverpool rout them and celebrate was painful. Kopites used it as another stick to beat us with and I couldn't ever understand why some blues almost joined in to be honest.

As for the rest of the comment I will stick to my guns he got more cautious as time went by. My post probably seemed overly harsh. I was trying to disagree with the idea he was only behaving at Everton thinking of managing United. I don't believe that at all. I also don't see how he'd have known since Autumn, there's no way United would have settled for Moyes in the autumn without considering guys like Mourinho.

It makes a great fictional story though. The evil Moyes always plotting to leave. The amazing United who have such power and control over little old Everton that they pull the puppet strings. The old Geriatric Fergusan mocked for his own Scottish roots and head strong nature and the football world gets to have the last laugh against him. The fact that some Evertonians join in with this nonsensical view of history disappoints me really. Yes we get to laugh at United and Fergusan and most importantly Moyes, however not at the expense of belittling our own club. For some they just don't see that. We are reduced to cheerleaders to what is ostensibly a Kopite falsification and comedy. We don't even get the main part. We get the crumbs of their laughter when they've finished laughing at us to poke Moyes. For many Evertonians they've fallen so low they are happy to take that.

However while I don't think he knew he was going to manage United. I think in his last 3 or 4 years at Everton he was just keeping up appearances. I think he had maximised his position and developed a method of finishing in the top 7 which made him look a miracle worker. He was happy to go along with that too. He knew eventually another offer would come.

 

[blue61]

Bobby is nowt if not a spin doctor,

There is nothing would settle an inexperienced defence as much as a goalkeeper they trusted in absolutely minding their backs.

They don't have that and thise lids know that even better than any of us do.

This is why I believe Bobby does not have faith in Joel and why he continues with a man in goal whom is doing the very opposite of re-assuring the defenders in front of him.

And just in case there is any misconception here.....I am not defending Bibby's decision to keep Hiward in goal.

It mystifies me and I reckon Joel should be on come Sunday.

I am just looking for a bit of rationale......because I sure as heck don't buy that gobbledegook about keeping Howard in because his defence is inexperienced

Got any O's?

 

[toffeejack]

Can't believe people are saying the wins against Southampton and Chelsea were flukes. We specifically set up in ways to exploit their weaknesses and defensively stifle them and it worked

i think people on here say games we won with subs were flukes. People say things like, "we only started playing well when barkley and deulofeu came on v norwich" - just because subs come and do more damage than the starting XI in games, doesn't mean the manager got it wrong/ Just think it's a glowing trend with modern football fans and possibly the british negative perspective.