Riots in Ukraine

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So the USA and Russia are having a nice chit chat about Ukraine. Very nice. Now it's time for the UK, Germany and France to tell them all to [Poor language removed] and stop treating Europe, which is bigger than both of them combined, like some little child. It's time for the old great powers to wake up........
 
Russia isn't expansionist mate, but what it will do is respond to perceived threats, countries like the Ukraine form a wanted buffer for Russia between the Russian homeland and NATO countries and until NATO/USA start interfering and effectively poking the bear so to speak then nothing will or would have happened, economically going back into old soviet block countries makes no sense, take for example the Ukraine - it has little in the way of natural resources, is saddled with debt and its energy has been massively subsidised by Russia for the past 25 years, economically, politically and militarily it makes no sense to 'take it back'

Take the Crimea as a case in this, the Crimea is Russia's black fleet port, without access to it their screwed as it is a vital area for them to have access to, the area was until the 50's actually part of Russia not Ukraine until given away by Khrushchev - who was very pro Ukrainian having been raised their (many reports have him as being Ukrainian although that's questionable), the people to the large extent are ethnically Russian, they speak Russian, they have family in Russia, many of their parents or grandparents were born n Crimea when it was Russia.

If the EU/USA/IMF/NATO, would not have started to interfere in the Ukraine this entire situation would not have occurred, the biggest provocation was the knowledge that after the Ukraine overthrow the inclusion into NATO was just a matter of time.

Basically imagine Americas reaction to soviet arms and missiles being allowed to be parked right on their doorstep, sure as [Poor language removed] it would not be to meekly accept this, a case in point being the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Did that mean that after the USA got what they wanted that they then proceeded to invade Cuba, well no, because it had the desired result. What Russia is doing right now, is to draw the line in the sand, preventing any further NATO inclusion of former soviet countries, which frankly is perfectly understandable, NATO was set up effectively to guard or wage war upon Russia, theirs an obvious contradiction in whilst America and the EU refer to Russia until recent events as a 'partner' they at the same time are pushing military forces onto the borders of Russia, into former soviet countries, all the whilst acting surprised that Russia is becoming more alarmed at this encroachment.
Why is their a need to push more Military strength towards a supposed economic partner, some might say 'but look at Georgia', or 'Look at Crimea' as reasons why this is needed and good strategy, without actually realising that's its an absurd statement and illogical, its like pushing someone and when they push back, you turning around and saying 'well that's why we pushed them - we knew they wanted to push us all along'

Without NATO/USA encroachment and frankly manipulation of those countries then the Russian reaction never would have occurred.
Excellent post. It is the way the western propaganda machine just assumed the usual, time honoured supporting the little people routine would go unchallenged, but with Russia they bit off more than they bargained for.
Just an EU driven economic chess strategy that has backfired.
 
GOT/Everton have the cleverest, most widely read supporters in football.

Just read a few pages of this, and learnt more about a part of the world I am ignorant of than I would have ever thought.
 
Russia isn't expansionist mate, but what it will do is respond to perceived threats, countries like the Ukraine form a wanted buffer for Russia between the Russian homeland and NATO countries and until NATO/USA start interfering and effectively poking the bear so to speak then nothing will or would have happened, economically going back into old soviet block countries makes no sense, take for example the Ukraine - it has little in the way of natural resources, is saddled with debt and its energy has been massively subsidised by Russia for the past 25 years, economically, politically and militarily it makes no sense to 'take it back'

Take the Crimea as a case in this, the Crimea is Russia's black fleet port, without access to it their screwed as it is a vital area for them to have access to, the area was until the 50's actually part of Russia not Ukraine until given away by Khrushchev - who was very pro Ukrainian having been raised their (many reports have him as being Ukrainian although that's questionable), the people to the large extent are ethnically Russian, they speak Russian, they have family in Russia, many of their parents or grandparents were born n Crimea when it was Russia.

If the EU/USA/IMF/NATO, would not have started to interfere in the Ukraine this entire situation would not have occurred, the biggest provocation was the knowledge that after the Ukraine overthrow the inclusion into NATO was just a matter of time.

Basically imagine Americas reaction to soviet arms and missiles being allowed to be parked right on their doorstep, sure as [Poor language removed] it would not be to meekly accept this, a case in point being the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Did that mean that after the USA got what they wanted that they then proceeded to invade Cuba, well no, because it had the desired result. What Russia is doing right now, is to draw the line in the sand, preventing any further NATO inclusion of former soviet countries, which frankly is perfectly understandable, NATO was set up effectively to guard or wage war upon Russia, theirs an obvious contradiction in whilst America and the EU refer to Russia until recent events as a 'partner' they at the same time are pushing military forces onto the borders of Russia, into former soviet countries, all the whilst acting surprised that Russia is becoming more alarmed at this encroachment.
Why is their a need to push more Military strength towards a supposed economic partner, some might say 'but look at Georgia', or 'Look at Crimea' as reasons why this is needed and good strategy, without actually realising that's its an absurd statement and illogical, its like pushing someone and when they push back, you turning around and saying 'well that's why we pushed them - we knew they wanted to push us all along'

Without NATO/USA encroachment and frankly manipulation of those countries then the Russian reaction never would have occurred.

Thats like saying that former Soviet states and their democratic governments can't request to join NATO and move from Russian domination to International cooperation.

Its not NATO encroachment. Countries don't want Russia dictating to them.

Countries like Latvia. Estonia. Poland.

Etc
 
Thats like saying that former Soviet states and their democratic governments can't request to join NATO and move from Russian domination to International cooperation.

Its not NATO encroachment. Countries don't want Russia dictating to them.

Countries like Latvia. Estonia. Poland.

Etc

Love the way you phrase that mate, russian dominance compared to international cooperation, nato was set up as a direct opponent to the ussr mate, the russians having vast concern to see this u.s dominated military organisation edge ever closer to its borders is no shock and justifiable, comparing ukraine to poland is wrong in so many ways also given the two countries history with regards russia

By the way theirs a long track record to how the states reacts to communist countries in its own back yard, cuba, el salvador, chile etc and how it seems to forget all about any form of democratic choice then
 
Fair points on each side, but gas supply and gas demand are relatively inelastic. If China buys gas from Russia, it buys less from OPEC nations, which sell it to Europe instead. The real problems are delivery bottlenecks; if distribution is shut down then no gas is delivered. But I'm not sure these gas-exporting nations really want to sit on it all. Russia can flex its muscles against Ukraine, but stopping all sales to Europe would hurt itself. And @bluestevon is quite right that changing distribution networks takes significant time. The US Gulf Coast will be ready to ship LNG soon... but it takes several years to build export facilities.

On Russia's plans for the future... @bluestevon has much more optimism on Putin's plans than I have. My views fit well with The Economist's recent cartoon:

20140322_WWD000_0.jpg

The cartoon pretty well accurately shows what Russia is about. As soon as it has any financial power it turns back into the beast and wants to play the superpower. The problem is that with a population of just 140M they are no longer a superpower, they sell gas and oil and turn it into military hardware, so they bully, they push and try to influence. If Ukraine had been in NATO it would not have happened, and Putin by his actions is basically just pushing Ukraine into EU and NATO membership.......
 
Excellent, about time the hand wringing stopped.....Putin is a bully, pure and simple, when he knows he won't get away with it he will stop......
This "rapid reaction force" is as toothless a response as it comes, they've been talking about this for decades and it's a failure. By the time a "rapid reaction force" came to Bosnia in 1995, countless innocents were butchered and borders literally re-drawn. Now they're basically giving Putin a 48 hour window to do as he pleases with the Baltic states, you can do a lot in 48 hours.

What you need is permanent Nato presence in the Baltic states so that if Russia attacks them, they would be engaging Nato forces directly. This is what happened in West Germany to good effect.

I do think Putin had legitimate grievances over Ukraine but he missed his opportunity to take eastern Ukraine when he took Crimea. And his recent comments questioning Kazakhstan's legitimacy as a sovereign state is frightening to say the least.
 
This "rapid reaction force" is as toothless a response as it comes, they've been talking about this for decades and it's a failure. By the time a "rapid reaction force" came to Bosnia in 1995, countless innocents were butchered and borders literally re-drawn. Now they're basically giving Putin a 48 hour window to do as he pleases with the Baltic states, you can do a lot in 48 hours.

What you need is permanent Nato presence in the Baltic states so that if Russia attacks them, they would be engaging Nato forces directly. This is what happened in West Germany to good effect.

I do think Putin had legitimate grievances over Ukraine but he missed his opportunity to take eastern Ukraine when he took Crimea. And his recent comments questioning Kazakhstan's legitimacy as a sovereign state is frightening to say the least.

It's a political statement more than a military one. NATO needed a bit of a shake up and Putin has given the Western leaders all the excuses they could ever want for beefing up their defence and spending the sort of money Russia cannot even dream about. Georgia will now join NATO and I'm sure Ukraine will follow. So by trying not to be encircled by NATO, Putin has now made it an inevitable outcome. The sooner Russia realises it's not the big I Am anymore and joins with Europe in a proper grown up relationship, the better it will be both for Russians and everyone else.......
 
It's a political statement more than a military one. NATO needed a bit of a shake up and Putin has given the Western leaders all the excuses they could ever want for beefing up their defence and spending the sort of money Russia cannot even dream about. Georgia will now join NATO and I'm sure Ukraine will follow. So by trying not to be encircled by NATO, Putin has now made it an inevitable outcome. The sooner Russia realises it's not the big I Am anymore and joins with Europe in a proper grown up relationship, the better it will be both for Russians and everyone else.......
I agree that Russia unnecessarily aggravated NATO but c'mon. Georgia is hardly going to be a NATO state or Ukraine. That's extremely unlikely.
 
I agree that Russia unnecessarily aggravated NATO but c'mon. Georgia is hardly going to be a NATO state or Ukraine. That's extremely unlikely.


"NATO has agreed on “substantive package” for Georgia that will help the country to prepare for membership in the Alliance, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said on the second day of NATO leaders’ summit in Wales on September 5."

Ukraine will follow....
 
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