Riots in Ukraine

[Billy Dean]

If you actually read up the situation mate he is correct, the government that was overthrown by the uprising was democratically elected, the woman who was imprisoned and released that got featured quite heavily on the news actually obtained less than 20% of the last vote and is a billionaires who made her money through very dodgy gas deals such as ones that the Russian oligarchs did

some similarities with what's going on in Venezuela.

 

[bluestevon]

I never said that the government wasn't democratically elected, I said that if you think Putin's motive is to protect democracy, you're deluded.

Its a more valid statement than invading a country looking for weapons that your intelligence service has already confirmed don't exist. the Russian won't stay in control of the Ukraine and anyone who thinks they intend to is deluded and living in a bad rerun of the cold war

 

[Mrk]

So exactly where is your information coming from then mate? unless its first hand with your own eyes then news flash for you mate thats called a source

Like most other people, social media. Unless twitter/facebook/youtube ban anybody anti-western, hardly a single biased source.

 

[chicoazul]

Putin is a despot.

Buses stop at Putin?

 

[bluestevon]

Like most other people, social media. Unless twitter/facebook/youtube ban anybody anti-western, hardly a single biased source.

Social media isn't unbiased mate per the nature of it, its very subjective to the issuer of the tweet, post etc, it also lacks any form of context

 

[Mrk]

Its a more valid statement than invading a country looking for weapons that your intelligence service has already confirmed don't exist. the Russian won't stay in control of the Ukraine and anyone who thinks they intend to is deluded and living in a bad rerun of the cold war

Who said any different? And more importantly, what does that have to do with this?

 

[rascal]

I fully recommend listening to Dan Carlin's latest 'Common Sense' podcast

http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php/csarchive/Show-270---Poking-the-Bear/Ukraine-Russia-Putin

 

[chicoazul]

If you don't want Russia to win then you're bad right wing immigrant hating nazi tory.

 

[Mrk]

Social media isn't unbiased mate per the nature of it, its very subjective to the issuer of the tweet, post etc, it also lacks any form of context

Absolutely true, but it has tens if not hundreds of thousands of individual 'sources'. You don't have to look hard to find tweets/videos from both sides of the conflict, and you can draw your own conclusions from them.

 

[bluestevon]

Who said any different? And more importantly, what does that have to do with this?

Because any country looking to become involved within another country has to have a valid reason for doing so, most often if not always those reasons stated publicly are not the real reason mate

The Russian are their now to secure its investments, its military bases they retain their (naval) and to ensure their isn't a unstable country on its borders which would set a bad president for other former soviet satellite countries, especially so given that a large percentage of the Russian income comes via gas and oil supplied to the west noticeably Germany through the infrastructure in the Ukraine, its common sense to realize they were not going to let the situation develop into further instability

Much like the US and us going into the middle east to secure supplies of Oil, most world actions by the major nations are done first and foremost with self interest at heart

 

[Mrk]

Because any country looking to become involved within another country has to have a valid reason for doing so, most often if not always those reasons stated publicly are not the real reason mate

The Russian are their now to secure its investments, its military bases they retain their (naval) and to ensure their isn't a unstable country on its borders which would set a bad president for other former soviet satellite countries, especially so given that a large percentage of the Russian income comes via gas and oil supplied to the west noticeably Germany through the infrastructure in the Ukraine, its common sense to realize they were not going to let the situation develop into further instability

Much like the US and us going into the middle east to secure supplies of Oil, most world actions by the major nations are done first and foremost with self interest at heart

Russia has every right to protect any bases it has from agression, but any more than that would be unjustifiable. Ukraine is not in a similar situation to the likes of Libya or Syria, in which their governments were/are killing civilians on a mass scale.

As for the US/middle east point, much like your reference to the Iraq war, it still don't justify it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[bluestevon]

Russia has every right to protect any bases it has from agression, but any more than that would be unjustifiable. Ukraine is not in a similar situation to the likes of Libya or Syria, in which their governments were/are killing civilians on a mass scale.

As for the US/middle east point, much like your reference to the Iraq war, it still don't justify it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Whilst not justifying it does highlight the western medias bias towards the way it reports such things mate, i could go on to draw a parallel with the way the gay rights thing dominated news reports over the olympics but thats going off on a huge tangent which is not really what this threads for anyways.

What the Russians are doing right now is a show of strength designed to stop escalating violence and the situation spiraling further out of control, which it will actually do, something like this i the Balkans would have saved many countless lives but as the west only had a political interest rather than a financial one it stood by and acted far too late and far too innefectually

 

[Mrk]

Whilst not justifying it does highlight the western medias bias towards the way it reports such things mate, i could go on to draw a parallel with the way the gay rights thing dominated news reports over the olympics but thats going off on a huge tangent which is not really what this threads for anyways.

What the Russians are doing right now is a show of strength designed to stop escalating violence and the situation spiraling further out of control, which it will actually do, something like this i the Balkans would have saved many countless lives but as the west only had a political interest rather than a financial one it stood by and acted far too late and far too innefectually

But with all due respect, the debate isn't about what the western media do and do not say - that's a minor irrelevance.

If all Putin is doing is a show of strength, than fine, but Russia do use force in Ukraine, it won't be to defend democracy and the liberty of citizens. This is Putin we're talking about.

 

[bluestevon]

But with all due respect, the debate isn't about what the western media do and do not say - that's a minor irrelevance.

If all Putin is doing is a show of strength, than fine, but Russia do use force in Ukraine, it won't be to defend democracy and the liberty of citizens. This is Putin we're talking about.

It is all this is mate, Russia is making a point to the west with this situation and a point to the middle ground politicos of the Ukraine who may be tempted to lean towards the west

 

[Wat Tyler]

He is trying to provoke Kiev into aggression so then he can say he is defending "russian citizens". There is no violence in Crimea, every report you read says people are going about their business, so talk of protecting Russians is a nonsense. If Kiev react, Putin looks like the great protector, if they don't you can be sure Crimea will be swallowed up into Russia through a "referendum". It is a landgrab, pure and simple.