Moyes Though ?

[VentureBrosEFC]

I think that's pretty unfair to Moyes. He didn't have the chance to have a vision. Remember what he was given...a shattered club, with no money and no players. Just a passionate crowd n' a pair of empty pockets.

He took us a long way. Now...about the youth... Rooney, Rodwell, Osman even Barkley... It wasn't much but it was a worthy work! Then he went for a couple of youngsters he helped develop. You may never forget who signed Stones, for example. And don't you forget the job he made with Fellaini...he was crap and then he was ace for us. Was sold for a nice amount of money too. He digged into the lower divisions and lesser clubs to find Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, Lescott...all of them were made international players under Moyes. He got some nice players for very few money, like Cahill, Pienaar and even Naismith. He left a solid team who needed a few touches to step further. Martinez did a lot more than a few touches. He brought Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy, McGeady, Lennon, Deulofeu, Kone...see how many players he bought and how much he spent in such a short tenure? He didn't have to sell any key player to raise funds. He didn't have to sell any promising youngster for the same effect. In fact, the clube has allowed him to hang on Barkley and Stones, unlike what happened in Rooney or Rodwell's cases.

Now the vision of Martinez... which one is it? He spends, he spends, he spends... He's going to shoot for Champions League football and then we're not even getting european football... He bought literally, a new squad and we are worse than we were! It does not compute. But worse than spending is his inability to convert those signings into a competent team. Of course we look ace sometimes, going forward. But we also look [Poor language removed] defendig. There's no balance in this team. It's his job as a manager to find that balance between good attacking football and guarding against the counter-attacks. He's had enough time and patience from the board and from the fans. The sort of poor excuses he's making only had injury to insult.

That is so mistake ridden it's hard to start at a particular place but I'll try and move along as it reads.
Not having a chance to have a vision doesn't even register as no matter what you're given you should be having goals and reasonable steps to attain those goals. For Moyes the goal was to get to 40 points every year. If that's the vision you want for the club then I guess I was being a bit harsh but to me it's barely a goal as much as "keep breathing" is a daily goal of mine.
Next point you made is youth. Rooney was never not going to make it through and might as well not be considered part of the youth argument as he hardly played like it. Rodwell never developed his game any further under him and was sold on to make up City's English quota and look where he is now on Sunderland's bench (if not for injuries I don't know where he'd be tbf). In regards Barkley he gave him a game or two here and there but after one mistake he was relegated to a watching brief and it's not even in question who has brought the best out of him although you could argue it was simply his arc of development. Then you mention him developing youngsters and him signing Stones. Was Stones progress contained to the half a season between that January before Moyes left and May when he did? I hardly think he spent any time with John as he probably was too concerned with when he was meeting up with SAF to discuss his next job.
Digging into lower divisions and finding talent. Isn't that what Martinez is doing currently with Galloway, Holgate, Foulds ... ? Let's see where they end up. Again Lescott was bought to fill City's English quota and wouldn't have been sold without the massive money City were throwing around at the time.
You say he Martinez has spent ridiculous money (already debunked by other posters, not to mention the inflated prices with the tv money) and that he never had to sell a key player but do you not remember the Fellaini saga? His sale (thank feck) was the only reason we had the funds to bring McCarthy and Lukaku (loan fee at first) in. He doesn't strike me as someone who would sit around and watch their talent be sold out from under them and I'm not sure where your notion that Barkley had any real interest in him like Stones did is coming from.
Now on to his "spending and spending on a new squad" you do realize that of his purchases there are only 5 that start at full strength? Howard (for better or WORSE), Baines, Jagielka, Stones, Coleman, and Barkley are all from the Moyes era and at times it has been even more with Mirallas and Osman making starts as well even this season so I'm not sure where you're getting the new squad idea from.
His first season (Martinez) that points total should've seen us in the CL and it was far greater than anything Moyes would've achieved in terms of a points haul. From then on its not been good enough and at times I want him to shut up too but unless you use facts add not emotion to attack him then I will point out where you're wrong.
Thanks for making me write my longest post ever by the way.

 

[Timak]

Stones would never have seen a blue shirt!

Err he signed him, why wouldn't he have played him?

He signed Lescott, Jagielka, Coleman, Baines as youngsters plus introduced Hibbert and they were the mainstays of our defence in his time in charge.

 

[Timak]

That is so mistake ridden it's hard to start at a particular place but I'll try and move along as it reads.
Not having a chance to have a vision doesn't even register as no matter what you're given you should be having goals and reasonable steps to attain those goals. For Moyes the goal was to get to 40 points every year. If that's the vision you want for the club then I guess I was being a bit harsh but to me it's barely a goal as much as "keep breathing" is a daily goal of mine.

Yes Moyes did always say "40 points is the first target". That was his personality. Roberto says "Our ambition is to win the title". That is his personality. The difference is Moyes got us to around 60 points whilst Roberto is looking like getting us to 50 ish.

 

[dannyboy]

The consensus is that Moyes left about 3 years too late, but with avalanche of TV money coming in shortly after he left, there is an argument that he left 3 years too soon.
God only knows where we would have finished if we could have afforded a Lukaku rather than a Saha, an Anichebe or a Jelavic.

You can never say for sure but it's hard to see how having £28m to spend on a striker whilst Moyes was here wouldn't have taken us into the top 4.

 

[dannyboy]

Err he signed him, why wouldn't he have played him?

He signed Lescott, Jagielka, Coleman, Baines as youngsters plus introduced Hibbert and they were the mainstays of our defence in his time in charge.

He thinks that because a manager doesn't play every single kid from the academy he doesn't believe in the youth system. Still think Shane Duffy was the next Maldini.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Err he signed him, why wouldn't he have played him?

He may have played him now and again, but we wouldn't have seen the Stones of now, who is lauded by all, because Moyes wouldn't have allowed it, he would have programmed Stones to just hoof it away, if Stones tried a quarter of the stuff he does now under Moyes, he would have been dropped like a lead balloon.

 

[davek]

Imagine what the balance will be in 4 years with Martinez in charge.

Either way, don't you forget that Martinez has that sort of result because of Moyes' work. The sale of Fellaini has a huge impact in Martinez' numbers and it wasn't his ability that allowed that deal. If it wasn't for that...he would have 40M£ less, which were raised by selling Moyes' signings. And, again, he sold Naismith for 8,5M£. He did not make a nickel on any of his "shrewd" signings. So under Martinez, the club made 48,5M£ . Looking at the facts I find that Martinez only managed to sell Moyes' players.. I mean only 1 player, because all the others were sold before he signed. And the sale of Naismith is the only money raised by Martinez' action. So, in truth, Martinez only sold players worth 8,5M£..10 if you consider Duffy. So in another brutal truth, Martinez spent almost 90M£ in just 3 seasons. Money that he didn't raise at all. Since 92 Everton has spent a little over 327M£.

While balancing the books, Moyes still had us as top 6 finishers. And Moyes paid a fraction of a transfer fee because he went looking for players on the "second hand shop". Yakubu wasn't cheap as wasn't Fellaini. If he had gone for top quality players he would have spent a close number to Lukaku's figure.

All in all, Moyes has left with an overall net spending of a little over 8,5M£ which averages at under 800k of net spending a season. Against 34M£ overall from Martinez which averages a little over 11M£ a season. It's over 10 times more. And if you take those 40M£ from one side to the other, the thing gets a lot darker.

Wrong. Moyes had a net spend of £16M for the whole period he was here. There's no question he managed a tight budget and got good PL placings. It's wrong to suggest though that he had nothing to spend. You point to the gross spend of Martinez but fail to point to the gross spend of Moyes. It was £141M.

The truth is that both these managers have done well in the transfer market whilst here in terms of net spend and the quality of squad gained.

That's a long way off the claim that Moyes has some major advantage over Martinez on this issue though.

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

Yes Moyes did always say "40 points is the first target". That was his personality. Roberto says "Our ambition is to win the title". That is his personality. The difference is Moyes got us to around 60 points whilst Roberto is looking like getting us to 50 ish.

That's not just a "personality" it's psychologically effecting language that does make a difference and yet you fail to mention our highest ever prem points total. Was it coincidence when I saw who replied that I knew a Moyes apologist sentiment was to be expressed? Nope.

 

[davek]

So he had 5 million per season, until he didn't even have that, yet he still left us top 6 with a total net spend of around £1 million per year.
Yeah you've really crushed that myth.

Yes, we got top 6 all those seasons too didn't we? No. We averaged 8th for that 2002/03 - 2008/09 period....pretty much the average so far under Martinez's short time in charge.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

which were raised by selling Moyes' signings

So if we sold Stones for £50m, would that be down to Moyes because he bought him, or would it be down to Martinez who has helped Stones become that £50m player?

 

[Joey66]

Err he signed him, why wouldn't he have played him?

He signed Lescott, Jagielka, Coleman, Baines as youngsters plus introduced Hibbert and they were the mainstays of our defence in his time in charge.

Sent Coleman out on loan when Hibbert was past it????

 

[RalphDring]

Moyes wasnt the right man for the job at the end, he did superbly getting us to where he did, he built a very good squad considering the money he had to spend, but he wasnt quite getting the best out of it, a lot like Martinez currently.

Agreed, I always liked him and was actually quite proud he was our manager at one point, he did reach a certain level and then just stayed there, it is looking a bit too similar at the moment, I did wonder if the sabbatical he took after leaving Man U where he seemed to keen to broaden his coaching skills would see a more positive Moyes when he went to Spain. He did stop looking the deathly shade of grey he did at utd, I was actually worried for him seeing him on match of the day one night. He looked like he had been sleeping rough for a few months.

 

[JonS]

Interestingly it is the Martinez-signed players in the team this season (Lukaku, Barry, Deulofeu, recently Besic and Funes Mori) that have shined whereas those from the Moyes era have been more lacklustre.

Not sure what that proves. Maybe that Martinez needs to build a whole team himself from scratch.

I Wonder if Osman, Howard, Piennar, Jags etc might have preferred playing under Moyes.

 

[ToffeeDoug]

Interestingly it is the Martinez-signed players in the team this season (Lukaku, Barry, Deulofeu, recently Besic and Funes Mori) that have shined whereas those from the Moyes era have been more lacklustre.

Not sure what that proves. Maybe that Martinez needs to build a whole team himself from scratch.

I Wonder if Osman, Howard, Piennar, Jags etc might have preferred playing under Moyes.

They are also getting older!

Bit harsh to call Piennaar lacklustre, he has only played a handful of minutes and was one of the few to play well vs. Swansea.

 

[Goat]

So if we sold Stones for £50m, would that be down to Moyes because he bought him, or would it be down to Martinez who has helped Stones become that £50m player?

If anything Stones has gone backwards under Martinez.