Moyes - should he stay or should he go?

[Marcus Kendall]

I rather think some folk confuse being loud, brash and outgoing as being a good leader.

Which isn't what an extrovert actually is. Rather, it's more about preferred style of engagement, working and communication. I.e. some people like and thrive on constantly being around people and talking through problems. Others are much more likely to prefer time to focus think and analyse.

Less is more, respect is earned in different ways.

Would you apply this to football management too? When I think of the managers who win things they tend to be vocal and have a more dominant presence. Plus fans moan when managers are impassive on the touchline as they prefer animated managers who appear to be directing things. Or am I talking codswallop (great word that) again?

 

[davek]

Abraham Lincoln was an introvert. One of our problems is we appoint to many extroverts to power when it is thoughtful leaders that tend to be more successful.

Hell, Clough was an extrovert but Paisley was a quiet guy who preferred hoovering up silverware.

Tell that to the family of the pensioner on Arkles Lane who Paisley butted and kicked in the ribs.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Would you apply this to football management too? When I think of the managers who win things they tend to be vocal and have a more dominant presence. Plus fans moan when managers are impassive on the touchline as they prefer animated managers who appear to be directing things. Or am I talking codswallop (great word that) again?

Depends, Sven Goran Erikson wasn't a tubthumper. I'd argue Carlo Ancelotti is so far removed from the loud vocal sort.

It's also the case that people learn or develop qualities more associated with different personality types. In reality we're not creatures not necessarily put into boxes.

 

[Marcus Kendall]

Depends, Sven Goran Erikson wasn't a tubthumper. I'd argue Carlo Ancelotti is so far removed from the loud vocal sort.

It's also the case that people learn or develop qualities more associated with different personality types. In reality we're not creatures not necessarily put into boxes.

Eriksson was criticised for his lack of leadership qualities with England. Then again Capello was criticised for being too domineering. Good point you make about Ancelotti though again the Bayern players criticised his laid back management style and lack of leadership on the training ground

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Eriksson was criticised for his lack of leadership qualities with England. Then again Capello was criticised for being too domineering. Good point you make about Ancelotti though again the Bayern players criticised his laid back management style

You can't please all of the people all of the time!

 

[Marcus Kendall]

You can't please all of the people all of the time!

Exactly. I guess it depends on the profile of the squad

 

[DualityNSNO]

I'd argue Carlo Ancelotti is so far removed from the loud vocal sort.

Not what you're talking about, but it's still hilarious to me that (IIRC) Michael Keane was left confused with the lack of instructions, and Ancelotti telling him to "just play".

"Just play the ball Michael" and he's just sat there like a deer in the headlights.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

If he goes there will be trouble and if he stays we win the double

 

[DualityNSNO]

If he goes there will be trouble and if he stays we win the 9th place trophy

Agreed mate.

 

[jazzy]

You may be right that I'm miles off. My opinions are formed from personal experiences where leadership tends to be more vocal than quiet. I've conceded I've made a mistake with using a general sweeping statement. Yes I remember that about Baines too. I would be surprised if he ever managed Everton permanently

I don't think you are far off the mark. Football management isnt one size fits all.

Of course there is a place for quiet , thoughtfully leadership - see Carlo and Wenger .
Equally there is a place for loud extroverts like Ferguson and Mourinho.

 

[balggy]

Was thinking about the 2013/14 season, and how me amassed 72 points.

2 key players that season were Ross Barkley and John Stones, and I was thinking, would they have had the same impact that season under Moyes, rather than Martinez, and the answer had to be no.

Martinez trusted both of them, gave them freedom to develop as footballers. I honestly don’t think Moyes would have given them anywhere near the same level of minutes as Martinez did that season.

Moyes was there the previous year (12-13) and Barkley’s minutes were very limited. It was when Martinez came in that he started to thrive.

So yes, I do think Moyes has an issue with young players, he fundamentally doesn’t trust them, unless you are genuinely world class like Rooney or Rice.

 

[Tipp blue]

Was thinking about the 2013/14 season, and how me amassed 72 points.

2 key players that season were Ross Barkley and John Stones, and I was thinking, would they have had the same impact that season under Moyes, rather than Martinez, and the answer had to be no.

Martinez trusted both of them, gave them freedom to develop as footballers. I honestly don’t think Moyes would have given them anywhere near the same level of minutes as Martinez did that season.

Moyes was there the previous year (12-13) and Barkley’s minutes were very limited. It was when Martinez came in that he started to thrive.

So yes, I do think Moyes has an issue with young players, he fundamentally doesn’t trust them, unless you are genuinely world class like Rooney or Rice.

Martinez benifited from a well drilled defensive side which Moyes had developed, Lukaku and Barry were added and we got going, it didnt take a long time of Bob ignoring defence for things to go bad, which got him punted.

 

[balggy]

Martinez benifited from a well drilled defensive side which Moyes had developed, Lukaku and Barry were added and we got going, it didnt take a long time of Bob ignoring defence for things to go bad, which got him punted.

I’m not disagreeing with any of that. But 2 things can be true at the same time:

- Moyes did leave a well drilled side which was very strong defensively, and Martinez eventually neglected that;

- Martinez placed a lot of faith in Stones and Barkley, and gave them more minutes than Moyes would have

 

[Delargeinho]

Was thinking about the 2013/14 season, and how me amassed 72 points.

2 key players that season were Ross Barkley and John Stones, and I was thinking, would they have had the same impact that season under Moyes, rather than Martinez, and the answer had to be no.

Martinez trusted both of them, gave them freedom to develop as footballers. I honestly don’t think Moyes would have given them anywhere near the same level of minutes as Martinez did that season.

Moyes was there the previous year (12-13) and Barkley’s minutes were very limited. It was when Martinez came in that he started to thrive.

So yes, I do think Moyes has an issue with young players, he fundamentally doesn’t trust them, unless you are genuinely world class like Rooney or Rice.

Pretty much sure, they wouldn‘t. But also that we wouldn‘t have the downfall in 14/15. Lukaku was a good scorer at West Brom before joining us tho.

 

[Delargeinho]

I’m not disagreeing with any of that. But 2 things can be true at the same time:

- Moyes did leave a well drilled side which was very strong defensively, and Martinez eventually neglected that;

- Martinez placed a lot of faith in Stones and Barkley, and gave them more minutes than Moyes would have

It‘s the same: Dyche and Moyes who are rather defensive managers left good defenses, but surely aren‘t the manager that could solve a problem that we‘ve had for a decade which is scoring

I believe we scored 50 goals on average during Moyes first spell.