"Moyes fears over Everton's summer transfer war chest"

[Makis]

Bit of an evasive answer there Makis. You yourself said we've had a lot of injuries, now you're saying few of those made any difference.

Of course they made a difference, but a few long-term injuries are hardly unheard of, are they? How many long-term injuries did Villa, for instance, have?

I'm inclined to agree that overplaying can result in injury but we've had a similar size squad ever since Moyes has been manager so surely we should have had the same number of injuries every year?

We have had, but worse than that we have usually faded near the end of each season. I think this is a symptom of over-playing as well. The players get emotionally tired and they have niggling injuries they can't get properly healed during the season.

 

[davek]

Unless the accounts lie we won't be spending much, but unless the table lies it suggests we don't need to to maintain 5th spot.

Now of course if people expect us to challenge for 4th then I don't think that's realistic because we don't have the money to do so. .

Isn't that the crux of the debate? We dont have the money (again) and we make do and mend (again)? Nothing to do with bragging to other supporters about how much a player cost, all to do with breaking through that glass ceiling and becoming a league challenging force again.

 

[Neiler]

Isn't that the crux of the debate? We dont have the money (again) and we make do and mend (again)? Nothing to do with bragging to other supporters about how much a player cost, all to do with breaking through that glass ceiling and becoming a league challenging force again.

Whos to say if we hadnt have been touched with injuries almost for the whole the whole season we wouldnt have been challengeing for a top four place. There wasnt one game were we could choose from a squad that wasnt decimated with injury to quality players. At the end of the day we only finished 9 points behind Arsenal. Could that extra quality in our we missed throughout the seaon in our squad turned three or more draws into wins, better believe it.

 

[Gwladys Nights]

Agree with the poster a page or so back who says we don't have to worry about squad players this summer. If we don't end up keeping Jacobsen, Castillo or Jo one would hope we could call on Coleman, Peterlin and Baxter in their place. Rodwell and Gosling will be ready right from the start of the season this time and should be good for around 20-25 games each.

If we sign Moutinho and Moyes has a flutter on a couple of 50-50s like he usually does (Jacobsen, Saha, Castillo, Pienaar, Cahill, Arteta, maybe even Neville were all in this category when they arrived) then we'll be very well equipped for the new season.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course they made a difference, but a few long-term injuries are hardly unheard of, are they? How many long-term injuries did Villa, for instance, have?

I havn't followed them much of late but when the 'will we catch Villa' thread was launched I mentioned that 8 of their squad had played 95% of their games to that point, 9 if you included Heskey. So it's probably safe to say that they had a good bit of fortune with injuries. I also mentioned in that thread that they had used fewer players than we had at that point in the season, and that fatigue would play a part. So from that alone it would suggest that we have a better squad than Villa.

Isn't that the crux of the debate? We dont have the money (again) and we make do and mend (again)? Nothing to do with bragging to other supporters about how much a player cost, all to do with breaking through that glass ceiling and becoming a league challenging force again.

I would say so. Unless we get into the CL then even winning the FA, League and Europa won't provide us with much more money, probably not enough to buy a Fellaini for instance.

If we're to get anywhere something has to change to get money in. This is why I'm in favour of Kirkby, because we have to do something. We can't keep going to the bank asking for yet more credit each summer, which inevitably hampers future efforts to buy players due to the increase in repayments every year. There will come a time when the bank will say no and we'll become a selling club.

 

[davek]

Whos to say if we hadnt have been touched with injuries almost for the whole the whole season we wouldnt have been challengeing for a top four place. There wasnt one game were we could choose from a squad that wasnt decimated with injury to quality players. At the end of the day we only finished 9 points behind Arsenal. Could that extra quality in our we missed throughout the seaon in our squad turned three or more draws into wins, better believe it.

If ifs and ands were pots and pans....

In reality what we have is a policy of waiting for one of the four above us to slip up and have a bad season. We did it in 2005 when Liverpool had an off season. Arsenal had an off season this time around and no one capitalised. This is the source of Moyes frustrations: he's honed a core of players that you could reasonably see being part of a title winning team supplemented by journeymen pros. He's done all he can reasonably be expected to do in that respect. To progress, we need to be able to give him the cash to go out and sign proven quality players - more than the fee involved that means Everton being competitive in the wages department. With the best wil in the world, if you haven't got CL football to offer such players or what the capital has to offer, 40,000 pw - or whatever is the going rate at EFC - isn't going to swing it for you. In short, we've gotten to that stage of the game where perspiration has taken us as far as we can get, we now need inspiration...and that'll cost you.

 

[davek]

I would say so. Unless we get into the CL then even winning the FA, League and Europa won't provide us with much more money, probably not enough to buy a Fellaini for instance.

If we're to get anywhere something has to change to get money in. This is why I'm in favour of Kirkby, because we have to do something. We can't keep going to the bank asking for yet more credit each summer, which inevitably hampers future efforts to buy players due to the increase in repayments every year. There will come a time when the bank will say no and we'll become a selling club.

Kirkby doesn't add up financially for Everton in the short-to-medium term. I cant be arsed dredging up all the figures, but suffice to say that the repayments on bank borrowing will dwarf any wildly optimistic projection on attendance increase and corporate revenue from the much vaunted facility-led solution. In short, what we have right now would turn to ashes in the hands of Moyes.

 

[Neiler]

If ifs and ands were pots and pans....

In reality what we have is a policy of waiting for one of the four above us to slip up and have a bad season. We did it in 2005 when Liverpool had an off season. Arsenal had an off season this time around and no one capitalised. This is the source of Moyes frustrations: he's honed a core of players that you could reasonably see being part of a title winning team supplemented by journeymen pros. He's done all he can reasonably be expected to do in that respect. To progress, we need to be able to give him the cash to go out and sign proven quality players - more than the fee involved that means Everton being competitive in the wages department. With the best wil in the world, if you haven't got CL football to offer such players or what the capital has to offer, 40,000 pw - or whatever is the going rate at EFC - isn't going to swing it for you. In short, we've gotten to that stage of the game where perspiration has taken us as far as we can get, we now need inspiration...and that'll cost you.

How do you know Moyes is frustrated mate! Well anything is pots and pans really unless its happened so to be fair thats half the majority of opinions on the forum inclusive of an entire Kirkby thread.

Fact is with a thread bear squad, with argueably our two most gifted players out for huge chunks of the season and a lot of quality players out at different stages, we finished three wins of Arsenal. Im not so sure they had a bad season their points tally is similar to anyone claiming fourth in years gone by, they also went on a run of 21 consecutive games unbeaten basicly more then half the season. Face facts mate, the club and manager have built a team that despite the aversity it has faced this year specificly has continued to progress and improve.

There simply isnt a need to provide the level of investment your talking about, one or two quality players to add different dimensions to team will suffice. This glass ceiling people talk about doesnt exist, every year we have become closer and closer, fact dont lie. Moyes has proven you can progress if you get your house in order and invest wisely and build a club with values and a stream of youth breaking through, as i am sure he and the club will again prove this coming season.

With this squad in tact and the return of injured players i am wholly confident we can finish in a CL berth next season. Why protray a picture that the sky is caving in when it clearly isnt. Its hard to beleive mate you can be this negative a day after finishing fifth and three days before an FA Cup final.

 

[davek]

How do you know Moyes is frustrated mate! Well anything is pots and pans really unless its happened so to be fair thats half the majority of opinions on the forum inclusive of an entire Kirkby thread.

Fact is with a thread bear squad, with argueably our two most gifted players out for huge chunks of the season and a lot of quality players out at different stages, we finished three wins of Arsenal. Im not so sure they had a bad season their points tally is similar to anyone claiming fourth in years gone by, they also went on a run of 21 consecutive games unbeaten basicly more then half the season. Face facts mate, the club and manager have built a team that despite the aversity it has faced this year specificly has continued to progress and improve.

There simply isnt a need to provide the level of investment your talking about, one or two quality players to add different dimensions to team will suffice. This glass ceiling people talk about doesnt exist, every year we have become closer and closer, fact dont lie. Moyes has proven you can progress if you get your house in order and invest wisely and build a club with values and a stream of youth breaking through, as i am sure he and the club will again prove this coming season.

With this squad in tact and the return of injured players i am wholly confident we can finish in a CL berth next season. Why protray a picture that the sky is caving in when it clearly isnt. Its hard to beleive mate you can be this negative a day after finishing fifth and three days before an FA Cup final.

That's simply not true. Apart from 2005 there's over a decade of Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Chelsea/Newcastle/Leeds (the nouveaux riche clubs) dominating the top four slots. It takes mammoth effort and luck to gatecrash that club. Sad, but true.

 

[kenada_blue]

That's simply not true. Apart from 2005 there's over a decade of Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Chelsea/Newcastle/Leeds (the nouveaux riche clubs) dominating the top four slots. It takes mammoth effort and luck to gatecrash that club. Sad, but true.

I think it’s a bit of both. Yes, you do need luck and hope one of the top 4 slip up - but that isnt any different from the top 4 wanting to win the league or the luck of the draw in a cup.

If you remember we we're chasing the RS most of the way to 4th last year. We ran out of steam after the Florentina game - and it was the nasty derby game away that did us in the business end of the season.
This year we were 3 wins and a draw from 4th. And then you just think of the games against Blackburn, Newcastle and Wigan this year….

Villa themselves lost it down to to fatigue (their squad never changed for the most part of the season), and for a team that rely on pace it killed them. Arsenal had players returning from injury and had players that can come in at a good skill level and get results that kept them going all season.

I think what this and last years season proved, to me at least, it’s a marathon and not a sprint. You need that depth in the squad to put up a fight.

And I also think its not down to having that "quality" in depth, to get the 4th spot. Its is to win the league, but to get that champions league spot I think its more down to having depth of players that can come in and keep the level of the squad intact rather than come on and deliver a winner.

 

[davek]

I think it’s a bit of both. Yes, you do need luck and hope one of the top 4 slip up - but that isnt any different from the top 4 wanting to win the league or the luck of the draw in a cup.

If you remember we we're chasing the RS most of the way to 4th last year. We ran out of steam after the Florentina game - and it was the nasty derby game away that did us in the business end of the season.
This year we were 3 wins and a draw from 4th. And then you just think of the games against Blackburn, Newcastle and Wigan this year….

Villa themselves lost it down to to fatigue (their squad never changed for the most part of the season), and for a team that rely on pace it killed them. Arsenal had players returning from injury and had players that can come in at a good skill level and get results that kept them going all season.

I think what this and last years season proved, to me at least, it’s a marathon and not a sprint. You need that depth in the squad to put up a fight.

And I also think its not down to having that "quality" in depth, to get the 4th spot. Its is to win the league, but to get that champions league spot I think its more down to having depth of players that can come in and keep the level of the squad intact rather than come on and deliver a winner.

Yes, KB, that's what I'm saying. You can get your snout in the top 4 trough if you have that type of squad, and you get the rub of the green injury/suspension wise, and one of the usual top 4 (who also happen to be 4 of the best equipped clubs in Europe) have a nightmare season. That's why this league is becoming so monotonous. It's locked up tight and it'll take, as it did in 2005, an extraordinary combination of events for any of those clubs to be knocked off their perch. There's no way around the investment issue for us.

 

[Neiler]

That's simply not true. Apart from 2005 there's over a decade of Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Chelsea/Newcastle/Leeds (the nouveaux riche clubs) dominating the top four slots. It takes mammoth effort and luck to gatecrash that club. Sad, but true.

Ha ha 7 clubs in 10 years Dave i dont see the problem, are you really useing Leeds and Newcastle as example of why we need investment to get into the top four! When we do it next year it will be twice, its all in your mind this "glass ceiling", the players and manager have done it before and will do it again. Its nothing to do with investment im afraid Spurs, Newcaslte, City, Villa, Pompey, West Ham and all the other clubs who are not afraid to "invest" in their squads have all proven that.

Wenger has proved its possible to get into the top four selecting wisely in the market and bringing through talented youth, hes built a club at Arsenal just as Moyes is doing with us which is begining to yeild results, personaly im over the moon this is all happening on Kenwrights watch.

There will always be a few scaremongers claiming that the end is nigh unless we get investment. Just like everyones predictions that we would fall apart after last summer.

Not in the least bit worried!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course an alternative is to take a more sensible version of the Wenger approach. He hasn't invested much in his team but has used youth a lot. His downfall, if you can call it that, is he's gone too far. If Moyes can unearth a couple of young gems each season then that could be what's needed to break into the top 4, especially if we can cobble together the cash to get 1 first teamer each summer.

 

[evilwebby]

Hi all. Interesting debate. Leaving the Kirby issue aside for a moment, let's ask what it takes to break into the top 4?
It's clear that with the CL slots and money, the top 4 positions reward themselves year on year. It's unfortunate that the one year we managed to break into this monopoly we were not prepared 6or it and simply wasted the opportunity.

The big advantage the sky4 is in squad depth. What has been demonstrated, both by us and Villa, is that while our first XI can compete with Arsenal's or even ManU's when everyone is on their A game, we don't have the luxury of swapping things or changing the system and still be as effective when players lose form or are injured.

Can this gap be closed or even eliminated without the CL money? I believe it can, but I also believe it is a very real advantage and not an imaginary one, and to overcome it we need to do something different in the transfer market by buying younger upcoming players who will continually improve the squad and develop into top players. Also, we need a youth system that can provide us with ideally one first teamer a year. That pays for itself many times over and if it really is the best, is worth as much as CL money imho.
I believe that Moyes thinks along these lines also, and his youth and transfer policy reflect that. So long as he follows this plan and executes it well, we will continue to improve year on year, and at some point it is inevitable, not impossible, that we will break that Sky 4 stranglehold.

 

[davek]

Ha ha 7 clubs in 10 years Dave i dont see the problem, are you really useing Leeds and Newcastle as example of why we need investment to get into the top four! When we do it next year it will be twice, its all in your mind this "glass ceiling", the players and manager have done it before and will do it again.

10 years? Try since the Premiership began in 1992. Four are almost ever-present, which leaves three or four other clubs having broken into the club in the past seventeen years.

Its nothing to do with investment im afraid Spurs, Newcaslte, City, Villa, Pompey, West Ham and all the other clubs who are not afraid to "invest" in their squads have all proven that.

Wenger has proved its possible to get into the top four selecting wisely in the market and bringing through talented youth, hes built a club at Arsenal just as Moyes is doing with us which is begining to yeild results, personaly im over the moon this is all happening on Kenwrights watch.

There will always be a few scaremongers claiming that the end is nigh unless we get investment. Just like everyones predictions that we would fall apart after last summer.

Not in the least bit worried!

You're confusing the issue. 2005 was a massive achievement and those circumstances are never likely to be repeated. The teams to have broken the stranglehold in recent memory are Newcastle, Leeds, Blackburn, and Chelsea. The first three never stayed up there challenging because they were mismanaged on and/or off the pitch. You use other teams as examples of the model not working out at all, as if that disproves the point that you need serious investment. I tell you what, City will get into the CL places before we do again.

'It's nothing to do with investment'!!!

Someone better tell the Glaziers and Abramovich they're wasting their money.

Incredible.