davids
Player Valuation: £70m
No just suggesting that if you have a team mate that you lack confidence in it has a bearing on how you take up positions,but if you rate Keane,fine.
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I mean, it could be that or it could just be Zouma being out of position and no real fault of Keane. You can take your pick of Keane's faults, he has enough, but you can't start blaming Zouma's positional sense on this assumption that he is always having to cover for Keane, which he hasn't. I don't rate Keane highly, tbf I don't rate any of the 3 highly. It's just about picking the best partnership over the individuals.
4737carlin
Player Valuation: £90m
TBF mate when he hasn't played we have looked our worse, West Ham was a shocker and even against Lincoln they couldn't keep a clean sheet. I think our problems are more to do with set up and instructions coming from the top
Simon Buttle
Player Valuation: £60m
Exactly, you only need to look at the whole zonal marking thing, most teams use it in some form or another these days so it's not the system that is the problem it's how our players are setting up within it that is the issue and that comes from the top like you say.
It particularly affects the goal keeper.
If he has a flaky centre half in front of him, he can see the mistakes coming a mile off, through bad positioning, getting caught flat etc and the keeper ends up concentrating on “ when “ the centre half is going to make a mistake, as well everything else that’s going on.
davids
Player Valuation: £70m
If you were Zouma or Mina,would you bomb forward to support a midfield break knowing your leaving Keane as the "last man" if it breaks down?
Pickford must dread that scenario.
If Zouma/Mina was joining a break it would be the job of one of his teammates to fill in (either a midfielder or full back, Gareth Barry was brilliant at this). Again, it would be absolutely nothing to do with Keane and I bet the thought doesn't even cross their mind that they would be leaving him.If you were Zouma or Mina,would you bomb forward to support a midfield break knowing your leaving Keane as the "last man" if it breaks down?
davids
Player Valuation: £70m
If it isn't (which I very much doubt) it should. All it takes is a ball over him and he's lost.
I disagree there. I know what you're getting at, but I think Keane's weaknesses probably do have an effect on how other players go about their jobs. One of his biggest problems is he has virtually no capacity for recovery. When he gets isolated, or once someone has got past him, it's curtains because he very rarely manages to get back at them. That must be taken to consideration in the team set up/other player's positioning. If he goes out to win a ball on the halfway line my heart is always in my mouth in case he doesn't get there, because he'll be out of the game completely if he doesn't. When Jagielka or Distin used to do it, or Zouma now, you still think if he doesn't get there he'll probably catch him anyway, but not Keane. If i'm thinking that I assume his partner probably is too, which means they might be deeper than they'd usually be, or on the back foot anticipating danger rather than the front foot trusting their team mate.
Obviously I'm not suggesting any mistake by the others is Keane's fault, or that I have evidence that is the case, just that I don't think it's as unlikely as you're suggesting.
If we conceded from that scenario the fault would be of the centre half who's decided to totally abandon his position and run upfield. Or the player who didn't have the awareness to fill in for him. Not the centre back who's keeping his position. This is a bizarre argument.
Fair enough mate. I can totally see the lack of recovery speed being a major weakness to Keane, however I don't believe that Zouma is somehow playing worse because he is mentally always worrying about Keane as a previous poster suggests. Silva will (hopefully) have them tactically set up to utilise the strengths of both players.
You have a partnership to cover each players weaknesses and strengths. Keane, this year, has been good at winning headers and his passings been good. Whereas Zouma and his pace compliments this. Keane goes up to win the header, Zouma drops in to cover any loose balls.
In the long run, if we are intent on playing the high pressing game with a high line to match, then Keane is absolutely not the answer due to the lack of recovery and Zouma is well more suited.
Many blamed Pickford the other night (I don't see it as his fault). Keane wasn't playing in that game...
I just think our partnerships look stronger when it's Keane and one other.
Against Leicester we kept them quiet. They didn't do a thing. It was one cock up - Keane's howler - that they capitalised on. But on the whole, had that game finished 0-0, we'd probably have been saying both Keane and Zouma had a solid game, because they did up until that point.
Evans made an equally as bad of an error at the other end, for example, by passing straight to Tosun. But Tosun isn't Vardy, unfortunately for us.
I like Mina, I think he's our 'best' defender. He has strength, a bit of pace and aerially he's strong. He does like to run out and dive in, though, which is something that Zouma does a lot of. I'd say out of the three of them, Keane has learned to stand his man more (not saying he doesn't make errors, as he does), and in that one example I'd say that it's important to have one player who is more aggressive, and one who is more conservative.
Heck, look at City the other night. Stones played the conservative role, and Kompany the aggressor. Liverpool - Van Dijk was the aggressor at Saints and Celtic, because of his pace. I'd say he's improved so much because now he plays as the conservative CB, with Gomes often the one using his pace to nip ahead of an attacker. When Lovren's in, he has to be the aggressor because he's a total lunatic.
Now I am absolutely not suggesting Keane is as good as any of the above - he isn't. But it's about balance, just like it is anywhere else on the pitch.
I admit it's a small sample size, but in games v Newcastle and Lincoln, our CB partnership of Zouma and Mina has looked very unbalanced, to say the least. So it leads me to say it has to be Keane and one of them, for now.
That is absolutely true, but is exactly the problem I was just outlining to you. A clean sheet doesn't mean you defended well, and conceding two doesn't mean you defended badly, but some people just refuse to accept that.
davids
Player Valuation: £70m
We obviously won't agree on this,but my point is that Mina will get better with more games. Zouma is a good to very good Prem defender. We have seen everything Keane has to offer and for me that's not good enough for a team with aspirations.
4737carlin
Player Valuation: £90m
Glad Keane is starting today
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