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Messi "best player of all time"

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Little Ralphy said:
ok then, let's use common competitions for the goals, so just using La Liga, Champions League etc. Messi scores a goal every 93.2 minutes which is pretty impressive and Ronaldo scores a goal every 90.8 minutes. Hence why I said earlier Ronaldo played in a different league etc. so the ratios you used were misleading. Not that goal ratios alone are the decider, just saying how you used the stats, and 'blowing people out of the water'.

Ronaldo and Coutinho from the examples you used, didn't 'cope' they adapted, and added things to their game so that they could still be successful in the more physical league. That's part of the argument people have against Messi, he's never had to adapt to a different environment like that. Ronaldo and Coutinho (as you used him) also played with inferior players. Sure Ronaldo plays with Modric etc. now, but at Sporting and United the level of players wasn't of the same standard every week. Messi has always played with Iniesta, who is for me arguably one of the best players if not the best of this generation. Messi has never won anything without Iniesta, that's where his case falls short for me. Inesta has won Euros and WCs without Messi.

Not that it matters but again just for clarity, in 2014 Messi scored 4 goals in a group against Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria. Ronaldo scored a hattrick against Spain and a match winner against Morocco.

Also the Euro's may not have the World's best teams, but it also doesn't have all of the poor teams that the World Cup has. And it's still the region's main competition, much like the Copa America is to Argentina. Again you just look at goals though when talking about Ronaldo's contribution, I watched the games, and anyone who did will have seen Ronaldo and how he lead that side. Fair enough Portugal didn't blow everyone away, but with the side they had that was a remarkable achievement in a tournament with so many of the big nations.
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Why not just use the all time statistics because that is the fairest way to do it, and not carefully select the games where one player can outdo the other to suit your opinion? The all time statistics include (with scoring rate included to take in to account Ronaldo's considerable more games):

League: (Messi 0.92, Ronaldo 0.78)
Europe (Messi 0.80, Ronaldo 0.76)
Other Cups (Messi 0.73, Ronaldo 0.61
International (Messi 0.51, Ronaldo 0.56)

Ronaldo has been better in International competitions for Goals but Messi beats him on the rest and for everything included. Messi is the superior goalscorer overall, and is considerably more influential for assists.

If Coutinho could adapt, what makes you think Messi couldn't out of interest? Both small players who have flair and great vision, not known for being tough but Messi is in a different class to Coutinho. He's also had the likes of Pepe and Sergio Ramos cynically fouling him for years, and we've seen more recently how much Ramos' physicality can affect the World's best players when he gets aggressive.

This Spain hat-trick is being massively manipulated as well. His first was a penalty, the 2nd was a horrendous mistake and the 3rd was a World Class freekick. If you're going to write off Messi scoring 4 goals in 2014, I'll write off Ronaldo's penalty and average shot that de Gea spilled, and also mention how Ronaldo's other goal was against Morrocco. Messi scored from outside the box against Iran in the 91st minute, you can't just dismiss that because of the opposition. Ronaldo didn't score against them the other day.

There is no denying that Ronaldo stepped up with the freekick or that so far he's been superior to Messi in this tournament though.
 

EFC78 said:
Why not just use the all time statistics because that is the fairest way to do it, and not carefully select the games where one player can outdo the other to suit your opinion? The all time statistics include (with scoring rate included to take in to account Ronaldo's considerable more games):

League: (Messi 0.92, Ronaldo 0.78)
Europe (Messi 0.80, Ronaldo 0.76)
Other Cups (Messi 0.73, Ronaldo 0.61
International (Messi 0.51, Ronaldo 0.56)

Ronaldo has been better in International competitions for Goals but Messi beats him on the rest and for everything included. Messi is the superior goalscorer overall, and is considerably more influential for assists.

If Coutinho could adapt, what makes you think Messi couldn't out of interest? Both small players who have flair and great vision, not known for being tough but Messi is in a different class to Coutinho. He's also had the likes of Pepe and Sergio Ramos cynically fouling him for years, and we've seen more recently how much Ramos' physicality can affect the World's best players when he gets aggressive.

This Spain hat-trick is being massively manipulated as well. His first was a penalty, the 2nd was a horrendous mistake and the 3rd was a World Class freekick. If you're going to write off Messi scoring 4 goals in 2014, I'll write off Ronaldo's penalty and average shot that de Gea spilled, and also mention how Ronaldo's other goal was against Morrocco. Messi scored from outside the box against Iran in the 91st minute, you can't just dismiss that because of the opposition. Ronaldo didn't score against them the other day.

There is no denying that Ronaldo stepped up with the freekick or that so far he's been superior to Messi in this tournament though.
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Cos basic science would say you need something in common to compare two things. Otherwise you could argue Henrik Larsson was better than Alan Shearer or something like that.

Messi may well adapt, but he hasn't moved from that Barca side with Iniesta, and it seems Messi doesn't look the player he was at the same time Iniesta's influence and minutes on the pitch has waned. Or you could argue Coutinho looked better when he played away from most of the big physical players and played in a deeper role. I'm not a massive fan of Coutinho to be honest. Messi may well have adapted and looked even better in this country but it'll always count against him that he never moved anywhere else, and hasn't performed to the same level with Argentina.

I think both Messi and Ronaldo, have benefited massively from playing in an almost free role, and with every mistimed tackle or contact being a yellow card these days, they're making the most of attacking the defenders face to face. Whereas the Brazilian Ronaldo for example, played right up alongside the best defenders and still looked outstanding, He even moved from Spain to Italy which was arguably the best defensive league in the World at the time, and still shone. Even over-weight with a 'thyroid issue' he was still Madrid's best player. As Zidane said, they became reliant on Ronaldo and looked to him to change games as most teams do with their best players.

Pepe and Ramos played for the same team mate, hardly every week. And salah was nowhere near the World's best player, he just shone in a system that suited him, much like mane did the season before, just salah shone a little brighter.
 
Little Ralphy said:
Cos basic science would say you need something in common to compare two things. Otherwise you could argue Henrik Larsson was better than Alan Shearer or something like that.

Messi may well adapt, but he hasn't moved from that Barca side with Iniesta, and it seems Messi doesn't look the player he was at the same time Iniesta's influence and minutes on the pitch has waned. Or you could argue Coutinho looked better when he played away from most of the big physical players and played in a deeper role. I'm not a massive fan of Coutinho to be honest. Messi may well have adapted and looked even better in this country but it'll always count against him that he never moved anywhere else, and hasn't performed to the same level with Argentina.

I think both Messi and Ronaldo, have benefited massively from playing in an almost free role, and with every mistimed tackle or contact being a yellow card these days, they're making the most of attacking the defenders face to face. Whereas the Brazilian Ronaldo for example, played right up alongside the best defenders and still looked outstanding, He even moved from Spain to Italy which was arguably the best defensive league in the World at the time, and still shone. Even over-weight with a 'thyroid issue' he was still Madrid's best player. As Zidane said, they became reliant on Ronaldo and looked to him to change games as most teams do with their best players.

Pepe and Ramos played for the same team mate, hardly every week. And salah was nowhere near the World's best player, he just shone in a system that suited him, much like mane did the season before, just salah shone a little brighter.
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Messi scored 45 in 54 games this season and 54 in 52 last so he seems to constantly be producing.

The Brazilian Ronaldo was exceptional, I agree and I am also a big fan of Iniesta. One of the greatest of his generation for sure.

Whether he does it again next year remains to be seen but to deny Salah was one of the World's best players in the season just gone is ridiculous. He scored 44 in 52 and lead the RS to the CL final when they're nowhere near in the top 2 teams in Europe.
 
Feel sorry for the lad in a way, but can't really forgive his "oh no, I'll just look at the floor crestfallen" every time France have scored today.

This is why even as good as he is he splits Argentina fans. Maradona would rather die on the pitch then give up when things are going against him. They're a lot like England (or ebepton?) wanting to feel like a player cares as much as or possibly even more than their skill. For Argentina at least, he doesn't really seem to have a fire inside him.
 

Still the best in my mind but he seemed defeated the moment france got the third. Still he gave them a chance at winning, and probably should have been played in a deeper position since the start.
 


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