Messi "best player of all time"

[bicycleheader]

Yeah I get that mate but you seem so entrenched in the Messi love in that your trying to change people’s opinions.

For me ronaldo has more pace, more agility, is better in the air, better striker of the ball, there are traits to ronaldo that Messi don’t have but ronaldo does and what swings it for me he is by far the better show man. Football is about entertainment and ronaldo provides far more entertainment than Messi does. I’m not basing this opinion on just this World Cup but let’s take this cup as a example. Ronaldo has dragged a mediocre Portugal side through and done it in style, apart from about half an hour Messi has stunk the place out and that Argentina side is decent imh.

One last point for me personally he’s done it in the premier league on a regular basis. I would like to see how Messi would get on with Ryan shawcross kicking 10 bells out of him for 90.

Honestly I am just always amazed that people can think this. It's an interesting discussion.

Ronaldo is, probably, faster. Maybe. I've no idea really.
What do you mean by agility?
He is taller so should normally be better in the air. Messi isn't great but he doesn't really play in a team that cross the ball very often.
Ronaldo when he strikes clean strikes harder and better, but for clinical finishing I would suggest Messi is better. Ronaldo also shoots A LOT, like even when it is not on and is basically just kicking against the defender in front. Messi will generally always look to pick the best option for the team,

Messi has countless goals scored after dribbling past 2 or 3 players, I don't know how that is not entertainment. Dancing around a defence. I would say that any advantage in this area or above is not enough to counter the vast gap in the playmaking area. The ability to control a game.

I haven't seen much of this WC but I wouldn't like to judge either players career on this one tournament. From what I have read I don't know that Ronaldo has really dragged his side through, although I do gather that Messi hasn't been great. Ronaldo didn't do that in the Euro win either despite the narrative that seems to exist now that he did so.

One of Messis best traits is actually that he gets battered and kicked regularly but just gets up and gets on with it. I can't say how he would do in the Prem League but again I don't know that Ronaldos doing it in two leagues is enough to make him better than a player who as a goalscorer/attacker is At the very least his equal or close to him, and as a playmaker is many levels above him.

For me there is too big a gap in what they do with the ball for it to be made up by the various factors that people mention in this thread.


...I am also posting way more than normal in here as I am bored as hell working far away from home on a project sitting in the basement of an office full of people who have no interest in football.

 

[tsubaki]

Yeah I get that mate but you seem so entrenched in the Messi love in that your trying to change people’s opinions.

For me ronaldo has more pace, more agility, is better in the air, better striker of the ball, there are traits to ronaldo that Messi don’t have but ronaldo does and what swings it for me he is by far the better show man. Football is about entertainment and ronaldo provides far more entertainment than Messi does. I’m not basing this opinion on just this World Cup but let’s take this cup as a example. Ronaldo has dragged a mediocre Portugal side through and done it in style, apart from about half an hour Messi has stunk the place out and that Argentina side is decent imh.

One last point for me personally he’s done it in the premier league on a regular basis. I would like to see how Messi would get on with Ryan shawcross kicking 10 bells out of him for 90.

Surely if you are saying that Ronaldo has more pace, more agility, is better in the air, has other attributes over Messi as well and is a better showman then you have to acknowledge that Messi must be the better footballer, otherwise how on earth has he got to the same level as him?

 

[FC sexy xxx]

Yeah I get that mate but you seem so entrenched in the Messi love in that your trying to change people’s opinions.

For me ronaldo has more pace, more agility, is better in the air, better striker of the ball, there are traits to ronaldo that Messi don’t have but ronaldo does and what swings it for me he is by far the better show man. Football is about entertainment and ronaldo provides far more entertainment than Messi does. I’m not basing this opinion on just this World Cup but let’s take this cup as a example. Ronaldo has dragged a mediocre Portugal side through and done it in style, apart from about half an hour Messi has stunk the place out and that Argentina side is decent imh.

One last point for me personally he’s done it in the premier league on a regular basis. I would like to see how Messi would get on with Ryan shawcross kicking 10 bells out of him for 90.

Wow

 

[Tony1985]

Lads Put your fifa ultimate team and Messi posters down and get out in the sunshine
Ronaldo is still the better player tho

 

[Tony1985]

Surely if you are saying that Ronaldo has more pace, more agility, is better in the air, has other attributes over Messi as well and is a better showman then you have to acknowledge that Messi must be the better footballer, otherwise how on earth has he got to the same level as him?

That’s the point mate, in my eyes he’s not his equal. The way I see it is ronaldo has all the attributes Messi has but Messi doesn’t have all the attributes Ronald does which makes him the better player.
There’s a reason why ronaldo is the most profitable and recognisable player on the planet.
Taking nothing away from Messi either because he’s an unbelievable player, it’s personal opinion though.

 

[FC sexy xxx]

That’s the point mate, in my eyes he’s not his equal. The way I see it is ronaldo has all the attributes Messi has but Messi doesn’t have all the attributes Ronald does which makes him the better player.
There’s a reason why ronaldo is the most profitable and recognisable player on the planet.
Taking nothing away from Messi either because he’s an unbelievable player, it’s personal opinion though.

David beckhan was the most profitable player in the world at one point mate . He was never the best though .

 

[TraffordBlue]

That’s the point mate, in my eyes he’s not his equal. The way I see it is ronaldo has all the attributes Messi has but Messi doesn’t have all the attributes Ronald does which makes him the better player.
There’s a reason why ronaldo is the most profitable and recognisable player on the planet.
Taking nothing away from Messi either because he’s an unbelievable player, it’s personal opinion though.

Ronaldo can't run a game from deeper like Messi can, so it works both ways. Messi can influence the game from the wing like Ronaldo can, but put Ronaldo in the centre and expect him to dictate the play and play intricate through balls and he just wouldn't be able to do it.

They are both excellent but in my opinion, the main reason Ronaldo is talked about as being in the same category as Messi is because of his outstanding goal scoring record, and yet he's inferior to Messi for scoring goals. Messi has 617 in 764 (0.81 scoring rate), whilst Ronaldo has 658 in 914 (0.72 scoring rate). Then there are the assists because we all know that Football is about more than just scoring goals. Messi has 42 more assists in 150 less games (250 to 208).

The couldn't do it in England myth is dispelled with his 20 goals in his last 18 against English sides in the Champions League. And the myth he hasn't ever done it in a major tournament is dispelled by him scoring 4 goals in the group stage in 2014, the same as Ronaldo has managed this WC, and him winning Player of the Tournament that year with his team getting to the Final. Ronaldo hasn't ever won the Player of the Tournament award in a World Cup, and hasn't lead his team to the Final like Messi has.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

He's not even the best of his generation...

 

[FC sexy xxx]

The English myth is funny. Since when has the premier league been home to the very best in the world? You get the odd one but Spain for the last 20 years and Italy in the 80’s and 90’s were always the places the very best played.

 

[paulbefc]

I think he's the best ever.

I certainly think he is and has always been better than Ronaldo.

 

[Little Ralphy]

They are both excellent but in my opinion, the main reason Ronaldo is talked about as being in the same category as Messi is because of his outstanding goal scoring record, and yet he's inferior to Messi for scoring goals. Messi has 617 in 764 (0.81 scoring rate), whilst Ronaldo has 658 in 914 (0.72 scoring rate). Then there are the assists because we all know that Football is about more than just scoring goals. Messi has 42 more assists in 150 less games (250 to 208).

The couldn't do it in England myth is dispelled with his 20 goals in his last 18 against English sides in the Champions League. And the myth he hasn't ever done it in a major tournament is dispelled by him scoring 4 goals in the group stage in 2014, the same as Ronaldo has managed this WC, and him winning Player of the Tournament that year with his team getting to the Final. Ronaldo hasn't ever won the Player of the Tournament award in a World Cup, and hasn't lead his team to the Final like Messi has.

Messi has only ever played in a side with the likes of Iniesta, Xavi etc. Ronaldo had a season in Portugal and then a few season at Utd, so the goal ratio is misleading really.

You also spectacularly miss the point with regards to can he do it in England. People say it because the Premiership is a lot more physical and played at a quicker pace than La Liga. The 'can he do it on a cold winter's night in Stoke' argument, doesn't mean Stoke are a fantastic side, it's used to say it'll be a very physical game, in sub-zero temperatures, against a side who will crowd players out, and likely a few days after playing another very physical game. La Liga is a great league but there is no denying it is more technical and/because it is played at a slightly slower pace. Also the disparity between the teams at the top of La Liga and those at the bottom is massive in financial terms, which means they do have a lot of 'easier games' in which to get their stats up. Not to mention the way Barca and Madrid are almost protected by the authorities there.

Playing against English sides in the Champions League isn't the same because it's against sides trying to win the game, not parking the bus, and is reffed by European referee's so is mostly less physical than the Premiership. Plus it's a one off game, every few weeks, not week in, week out.

Lol at your International argument, it was pretty much universally agreed he didn't deserve the golden ball in 2014, he wasn't even the best player in his own team, let alone the tournament! Argentina a side with players like Ageuro, Higuain, Dybala, Mascherano, Banega, Di Maria etc. have never even won the Copa America with Messi, let alone a WC! Maradona took a far less talented side to a WC title and a WC final! If Messi manages to turn up and guide Argentina to this WC then he deserves to be in mentioned but not until then. Ronaldo has at least won the Euros with Portugal, a side with far less talented players than Argentina.

Iniesta also has a far better resume than both, but he doesn't get the recognition the same because he doesn't have the same media profile.

In fairness Maradona, Pele and Brazilian Ronaldo, are far better than Messi or Ronaldo, and they did it in a time when they could be kicked from pillar to post throughout the game. Imagine them playing today when you can barely touch a player without a free kick and yellow card being given. They've all got WC winners medals, and played in multiple WC finals.

The truth is Messi and Ronaldo have benefited massively from the Internet and the current media age. Every good thing they do can be seen worldwide almost as soon as they've done it. If you watch football at home on tv, it's easy to multitask and you're almost just watching the 'good bits' so the highlights stand out and are easily remembered. You'll likely think higher of certain players than someone who was at the game and was solely concentrating on the match without commentator influence.

I went to all of our home games and many aways in the golden period in the 80's, saw Everton win leagues etc. I would say Neville Southall is the greatest keeper to play the game. But a younger fan will pull up a highlights package of a Schmeichel or De Gea almost instantly and it'll look loads better than the few highlights I could get from Southall's games, as the cameras weren't always there. Each time a top player comes along now he'll be hailed as the greatest ever because of this.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Messi has only ever played in a side with the likes of Iniesta, Xavi etc. Ronaldo had a season in Portugal and then a few season at Utd, so the goal ratio is misleading really.

You also spectacularly miss the point with regards to can he do it in England. People say it because the Premiership is a lot more physical and played at a quicker pace than La Liga. The 'can he do it on a cold winter's night in Stoke' argument, doesn't mean Stoke are a fantastic side, it's used to say it'll be a very physical game, in sub-zero temperatures, against a side who will crowd players out, and likely a few days after playing another very physical game. La Liga is a great league but there is no denying it is more technical and/because it is played at a slightly slower pace. Also the disparity between the teams at the top of La Liga and those at the bottom is massive in financial terms, which means they do have a lot of 'easier games' in which to get their stats up. Not to mention the way Barca and Madrid are almost protected by the authorities there.

Playing against English sides in the Champions League isn't the same because it's against sides trying to win the game, not parking the bus, and is reffed by European referee's so is mostly less physical than the Premiership. Plus it's a one off game, every few weeks, not week in, week out.

Lol at your International argument, it was pretty much universally agreed he didn't deserve the golden ball in 2014, he wasn't even the best player in his own team, let alone the tournament! Argentina a side with players like Ageuro, Higuain, Dybala, Mascherano, Banega, Di Maria etc. have never even won the Copa America with Messi, let alone a WC! Maradona took a far less talented side to a WC title and a WC final! If Messi manages to turn up and guide Argentina to this WC then he deserves to be in mentioned but not until then. Ronaldo has at least won the Euros with Portugal, a side with far less talented players than Argentina.

Iniesta also has a far better resume than both, but he doesn't get the recognition the same because he doesn't have the same media profile.

In fairness Maradona, Pele and Brazilian Ronaldo, are far better than Messi or Ronaldo, and they did it in a time when they could be kicked from pillar to post throughout the game. Imagine them playing today when you can barely touch a player without a free kick and yellow card being given. They've all got WC winners medals, and played in multiple WC finals.

The truth is Messi and Ronaldo have benefited massively from the Internet and the current media age. Every good thing they do can be seen worldwide almost as soon as they've done it. If you watch football at home on tv, it's easy to multitask and you're almost just watching the 'good bits' so the highlights stand out and are easily remembered. You'll likely think higher of certain players than someone who was at the game and was solely concentrating on the match without commentator influence.

I went to all of our home games and many aways in the golden period in the 80's, saw Everton win leagues etc. I would say Neville Southall is the greatest keeper to play the game. But a younger fan will pull up a highlights package of a Schmeichel or De Gea almost instantly and it'll look loads better than the few highlights I could get from Southall's games, as the cameras weren't always there. Each time a top player comes along now he'll be hailed as the greatest ever because of this.

First of all, although I was born in the late 80's I think that's a valid point about the internet age and agree with you. The likes of Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, Best etc looked like unbelievable players and it would have been great to see them playing in this era.

With the comments about Ronaldo having played a few seasons at Man United, I don't see how that helps your argument? He played for a Man United side that regularly won the League and won a CL when he was there. He currently plays for Real Madrid who have won the CL 3 in the last 4 seasons, and have players like Bale, Ramos, Modric, Kroos and Isco. He's been playing for 2 of the biggest clubs in World Football every season since leaving Sporting in which he played 25 games for 1 season only. So if you want to minus the 25 games for Sporting then go ahead but Messi's scoring record still blows Ronaldo's out of the water for goals to games which is the fairest way to look at it. Ronaldo's assists record is even more inferior.

If people want to try and claim that a player can repeatedly terrorise the defences of England's best teams on the biggest stage but not the likes of Stoke and West Ham then fair enough but I can't buy in to it. It's not like Ronaldo's known for being hard as nails is it and yet he coped? Or someone like Philippe Coutinho who is a very gifted player and managed to cope with the physicality of the Premier League.

It may be 'universally agreed' about 2014, and I personally think James Rodriguez had a better tournament but that doesn't take away from the fact that Messi scored in all 3 group games, including a 91st minute winner from outside the box, and got 4 goals. Matching the tally that Ronaldo got this time during the groups where loads have concluded that this means Ronaldo can do it in International tournaments and Messi can't.

As for the Ronaldo won the Euro's, have a look at Ronaldo's contribution and how Portugal actually performed in that Tournament. In the groups they actually finished third, behind Hungary and Iceland, didn't win a single game in the groups and Ronaldo only scored in 1 of the 3 group games (scored twice in a draw with Hungary). They then relied on an extra time win against Croatia, where he didn't score, a penalty shoot out win against Poland where he didn't score in the 120 mins. Scored in the Semi's against Wales and not in the Final. He was hardly instrumental in winning that Tournament for Portugal was he?

The Euro's do not contain all of the World's best teams either so it's not the number 1 International Tournament.

 

[gonetomorrow]

Messi took his goal well. I never realised he had a right foot.

I'm hoping there will be more spectacular goals than that to come in this tournament..

 

[Little Ralphy]

First of all, although I was born in the late 80's I think that's a valid point about the internet age and agree with you. The likes of Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, Best etc looked like unbelievable players and it would have been great to see them playing in this era.

With the comments about Ronaldo having played a few seasons at Man United, I don't see how that helps your argument? He played for a Man United side that regularly won the League and won a CL when he was there. He currently plays for Real Madrid who have won the CL 3 in the last 4 seasons, and have players like Bale, Ramos, Modric, Kroos and Isco. He's been playing for 2 of the biggest clubs in World Football every season since leaving Sporting in which he played 25 games for 1 season only. So if you want to minus the 25 games for Sporting then go ahead but Messi's scoring record still blows Ronaldo's out of the water for goals to games which is the fairest way to look at it. Ronaldo's assists record is even more inferior.

If people want to try and claim that a player can repeatedly terrorise the defences of England's best teams on the biggest stage but not the likes of Stoke and West Ham then fair enough but I can't buy in to it. It's not like Ronaldo's known for being hard as nails is it and yet he coped? Or someone like Philippe Coutinho who is a very gifted player and managed to cope with the physicality of the Premier League.

It may be 'universally agreed' about 2014, and I personally think James Rodriguez had a better tournament but that doesn't take away from the fact that Messi scored in all 3 group games, including a 91st minute winner from outside the box, and got 4 goals. Matching the tally that Ronaldo got this time during the groups where loads have concluded that this means Ronaldo can do it in International tournaments and Messi can't.

As for the Ronaldo won the Euro's, have a look at Ronaldo's contribution and how Portugal actually performed in that Tournament. In the groups they actually finished third, behind Hungary and Iceland, didn't win a single game in the groups and Ronaldo only scored in 1 of the 3 group games (scored twice in a draw with Hungary). They then relied on an extra time win against Croatia, where he didn't score, a penalty shoot out win against Poland where he didn't score in the 120 mins. Scored in the Semi's against Wales and not in the Final. He was hardly instrumental in winning that Tournament for Portugal was he?

The Euro's do not contain all of the World's best teams either so it's not the number 1 International Tournament.

ok then, let's use common competitions for the goals, so just using La Liga, Champions League etc. Messi scores a goal every 93.2 minutes which is pretty impressive and Ronaldo scores a goal every 90.8 minutes. Hence why I said earlier Ronaldo played in a different league etc. so the ratios you used were misleading. Not that goal ratios alone are the decider, just saying how you used the stats, and 'blowing people out of the water'.

Ronaldo and Coutinho from the examples you used, didn't 'cope' they adapted, and added things to their game so that they could still be successful in the more physical league. That's part of the argument people have against Messi, he's never had to adapt to a different environment like that. Ronaldo and Coutinho (as you used him) also played with inferior players. Sure Ronaldo plays with Modric etc. now, but at Sporting and United the level of players wasn't of the same standard every week. Messi has always played with Iniesta, who is for me arguably one of the best players if not the best of this generation. Messi has never won anything without Iniesta, that's where his case falls short for me. Inesta has won Euros and WCs without Messi.

Not that it matters but again just for clarity, in 2014 Messi scored 4 goals in a group against Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria. Ronaldo scored a hattrick against Spain and a match winner against Morocco.

Also the Euro's may not have the World's best teams, but it also doesn't have all of the poor teams that the World Cup has. And it's still the region's main competition, much like the Copa America is to Argentina. Again you just look at goals though when talking about Ronaldo's contribution, I watched the games, and anyone who did will have seen Ronaldo and how he lead that side. Fair enough Portugal didn't blow everyone away, but with the side they had that was a remarkable achievement in a tournament with so many of the big nations.

 

[ArtetaMagic]

So we're all agreed then?


Messi is the best