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Messi "best player of all time"

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Give Messi an aregentina world cup that is bent to allow the hosts to win and he'd carry the nation to victory too.

Messi is the best ever.
 

Bruce Wayne said:
Aye, Messi just had to make do with winning 7 more league titles, 4 more domestic cups, 4 more European Cups. It's alright though coz a player who got Argentina to 4 international finals during his career couldn't hack it in the international game.
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Did you notice his contribution to those efforts?

WC finals: 6 goals in 18 games
Copa America finals: 8 goals in 21 games

The Argentine football commentariat dismiss him as "the Catalan". That's how much they think he's helped the national team.
 
Not sure about 'best ever' but Ronaldo has played in Portugal, England, Spain and now Italy and performed at world class level in each. Hes also dragged Portugal through games.

Messi has played for the best club side in the world all his career and theyre setup and tailored for him...at Argentina he looks a shadow.

Its Ronaldo every time for me.

As for best player ever, why does it go to a forward player?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
During the period Maradona was in Serie A, Italian clubs won 3 of 7 European Cups (with 2 teams), 3 of 7 UEFA Cups (with 3 teams), and 1 of 7 Cup Winners Cups. In the time Messi has been in the Barca first team (13 seasons), Spanish clubs have won 8 European Cups (with 2 teams) and 8 UEFA Cups (with 2 teams). Doesn't suggest a huge difference to me. It's also odd that if most of the best players were in Italy, why Maradona had such a poor record in European competitions.
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I would argue it was that the top players in Serie A at the time were spread across 8-10 teams at the very least. That made the strength in depth of that league immense. Every week was a game against a very good side. That grind of every week needing to churn out your best whilst playing in a KO only European Cup were there is very little room for error is different than the Barcelona situation. Particularly when you look at the comparative squad sides also.

In La liga now, and for the last 10 years, the top players are concentrated in 2 to 3 teams. The players in those teams only need to go at full power in a handful of league games over the season. For me that allows an 80% Messi to absolute tear the a**e out of the likes of Levante, Las Palmas & Girona. Teams that have budgets similar to teams in the Championship. Barcelona and therefore Messi can also have some room for error in the 1st half of the season since the CL is a group format. This is hell of a lot less riding on those games.

Your stats don't add up as well when comparing winners of tournaments. At least the CL. In those 7 years were Maradona was at Napoli, Italian teams had, at best, 2 teams competing in the European Cup. Some years it'll have been 1. Now Spanish teams have 4 teams in that competition each year. The lack of seeding and KO football from the get go could make it more difficult for any side in the 80's. In 1987-88 season Napoli drew Real Madrid in the 1st round of the European Cup. Imagine Barcelona drawing Manchester City, Bayern or Juventus in a KO round in September nowadays!

Like I said in my previous post I think there's decent argument around Maradona or Messi being the best player of the last 30-40 years. I think if you want ti use a stats based approach to compare them then Messi will always win hands down. I think that's a wrong way of doing things since Maradona was performing in a domestic setting that was much, much tougher than anything Messi has encountered.
 
Zatara said:
Not sure about 'best ever' but Ronaldo has played in Portugal, England, Spain and now Italy and performed at world class level in each. Hes also dragged Portugal through games.

Messi has played for the best club side in the world all his career and theyre setup and tailored for him...at Argentina he looks a shadow.

Its Ronaldo every time for me.

As for best player ever, why does it go to a forward player?
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If you're implying Messi wouldn't be world class in Portugal or for a team that's just won 7 leagues in a row then I don't know what to say.

He might struggle in wet Wednesday night at stoke though eh?
 

Jamalio Danubio DiCanio said:
I would argue it was that the top players in Serie A at the time were spread across 8-10 teams at the very least. That made the strength in depth of that league immense. Every week was a game against a very good side. That grind of every week needing to churn out your best whilst playing in a KO only European Cup were there is very little room for error is different than the Barcelona situation. Particularly when you look at the comparative squad sides also.

In La liga now, and for the last 10 years, the top players are concentrated in 2 to 3 teams. The players in those teams only need to go at full power in a handful of league games over the season. For me that allows an 80% Messi to absolute tear the a**e out of the likes of Levante, Las Palmas & Girona. Teams that have budgets similar to teams in the Championship. Barcelona and therefore Messi can also have some room for error in the 1st half of the season since the CL is a group format. This is hell of a lot less riding on those games.

Your stats don't add up as well when comparing winners of tournaments. At least the CL. In those 7 years were Maradona was at Napoli, Italian teams had, at best, 2 teams competing in the European Cup. Some years it'll have been 1. Now Spanish teams have 4 teams in that competition each year. The lack of seeding and KO football from the get go could make it more difficult for any side in the 80's. In 1987-88 season Napoli drew Real Madrid in the 1st round of the European Cup. Imagine Barcelona drawing Manchester City, Bayern or Juventus in a KO round in September nowadays!

Like I said in my previous post I think there's decent argument around Maradona or Messi being the best player of the last 30-40 years. I think if you want ti use a stats based approach to compare them then Messi will always win hands down. I think that's a wrong way of doing things since Maradona was performing in a domestic setting that was much, much tougher than anything Messi has encountered.
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Firstly, the fact that La Liga won the equivalent of the UEFA Cup more times than Serie A teams suggests to me that their talent is spread pretty deeply, especially when you consider that when Maradona was playing, only the top team would be in the CL, whereas in Messi's era Spain would have 4 teams in the CL, meaning that their Europa winner was perhaps 5th best side in Spain at best. That suggests an under-rated level of depth imo, and they have won that competition more than any other league during Messi's era.

Regarding any accusations of him therefore being a flat track bully, you'd assume his record in the CL would dispel that myth, or the record number of goals he scored in the Classico. If you're not convinced, consider this stat in the image below (I can't embed it as it's blacklisted but search for Messi top 10 opponents):

So he's scored most goals against the 4 clubs you would probably say have been the strongest in La Liga during his era (the same can't be said for Ronaldo btw).
 
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Steve0 said:
If you're implying Messi wouldn't be world class in Portugal or for a team that's just won 7 leagues in a row then I don't know what to say.

He might struggle in wet Wednesday night at stoke though eh?
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He isnt for Argentina...

You dont know how he would play in non-Spanish sides...no one does.

The team is always built for him...
 
Comparing players from different eras is pointless imo, if you took some of the old school legends and put them in the modern game they probably wouldn't look as good as they did back in their day... that's not because their natural talent was any less but simply because todays players are far better conditioned and much more complete athletes due to the improvements in sports science, training etc over the past few decades.

Thats why I believe Messi is better than Maradona, if you put them both at their peak (in their respective eras) up against each other id be gobsmacked if Messi didn't perform to a higher level, if only because he's fitter and a better conditioned athlete than anyone in the 80s was.

Its an unfair comparison though, makes more sense to compare on natural talent but thats highly subjective.
 
When we compare greatest ever players, it's always the glory boys like Messi or Cruyff.
What about the fullbacks and centrebacks who man the ramparts and provide the ammunition?
They should have their own greatest ever competition.
 
gonetomorrow said:
When we compare greatest ever players, it's always the glory boys like Messi or Cruyff.
What about the fullbacks and centrebacks who man the ramparts and provide the ammunition?
They should have their own greatest ever competition.
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Goalkeepers must get really cheesed of looking at these polls.
 


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