Martinez Sentiment Poll: In or Out

[Saint Domingo]

martinez didnt spend 250m, they barely scraped by against crap teams, were crap in CL then subsequently in EL. Spurs have a good squad. Kanes been great, Eriksen's ace, Lloris is quality, although we have a better back 4, they have a better keeper. We should be around Spurs on a yearly basis as we're currently on a similar level to them on the pitch atm. almost made last 8 in EL

They mounted a challenge for top 4, we flirted with relegation. Our squad has massively massively under performed. If we'd have just replicated last season we'd prob be in top 4.

 

[USABlue]

They mounted a challenge for top 4, we flirted with relegation. Our squad has massively massively under performed. If we'd have just replicated last season we'd prob be in top 4.

we did not flirt with relegation. the season is 38 games long for a reason, but everyone declared us relegated in February. All that matters is where you finish in May. We've obviously under preformed, I had just finished editing my old post when you replied so check my edit as to why I think Rodgers deserves more scrutiny.

 

[Prevenger17]

I see there's a lot of laughing over in the Liverpool thread at Rodgers the fraud. Rightly so, but it does throw into perspective Martinez this season. I still even now think we have a stronger squad than them. Our defense man for man is markedly superior whilst upfront in Lukaku Mirallas and Naismith we have all the goalscorers. We're supposedly not bad in midfield either with very few wanting to swap McCarthy and Barkley for Henderson and Allen. So why is one club after just missing out on the top 4 and reaching two semi finals without a decent striker launching a full inquest whilst another with a 30 million striker upfront is congratulating itself on finishing tenth out of both cups at the first hurdle but hey at least we silenced those plotters. Just shows the difference in expectation levels between the fanbases, and it has nothing to do with money or with not knee jerking. The disappointment for so many fans, and Saturday just backed it up, is that this squad is easily better than Southampton's, Spurs, and probably Liverpool's as well. So to finish behind all of them and Swansea and Stoke (probably) is why Martinez should answer for a lot. I'm all for giving him another season as there is a quality team and manager in there somewhere, but he should be under the same scrutiny as Rodgers is under now. What annoys me most though is a few wins under no pressure and the entire fanbase has reverted from what little scrutiny we were putting him under to the usual acceptance of mediocrity and the annual false promise of next year. The kopite scrutiny from this one game will be bigger than we managed when we were 3 points off the drop zone.

A few things. Apart from our starting back 4, our squad isn't better than Liverpool's. But they're only marginally better. They should be massively superior to us considering they spooged 250 million their team. 30 million on one striker was a bit of an indulgence, but only in relation to what we are used to spending, it's absolutely nothing in today's terms.

We do have a better squad than Spurs and Southampton, but the Europa League almost always, without fail, has an impact on league performance. I believe this is because being in the EL usually means going to places like Krasnodar, where they have back-alley crones and witch doctors putting curses on players' legs. So in short, until FIFA sort out the witchdoctor problem in Eastern European football, we're going to take a hit domestically.

If we're wheeling out the same level of crap this time next season, then you'd be fully within your rights to demand Martinez be sacked. But patience is a virtue, and one very few fanbases possess these days. Rodgers is having the spotlight turned on him, but this is his third season. Martinez just wrapped up his second and we're still not really close to knowing what he's about yet.

 

[Chang Elephant]

I see there's a lot of laughing over in the Liverpool thread at Rodgers the fraud. Rightly so, but it does throw into perspective Martinez this season. I still even now think we have a stronger squad than them.

Agreed and that suggests the squad was misused for a lot of this season....Barry for instance massively overplayed for a 52 year old, Howard played in the goalkeeping position, some scottish gonk on the wing, Eto giving the team talks etc.
Just hope Martinez has absorbed some lessons because he's been worrying.

 

[Khalekan]

We do have a better squad than Spurs and Southampton, but the Europa League almost always, without fail, has an impact on league performance.

We are a mile behind Spurs, Prev and they were in the EL as well.

I'm just sayin' is all.......

Glad you picked a great game to come to last weekend

Please come over more often.

 

[catcherintherye]

I thought (and said so at the time around late September and early October) that Martinez was not dosing our effort and prioritising well with the Euro/domestic programme. For me (and this goes some way to answering your point about difficulties long term) we should have attempted to coast through the group stages of the EL (rotating for it using a lot of fringe players) and put everything into the PL. Instead of going full pelt for the group win and then ease up when that was secured, we needed the opposite attitude of qualifying in good time. If we didn't make the KO stages, then so be it. I think we had a strongish group but may have gotten through in any case. Moyes used the UEFA Cup/EL stages in that vein and I think he was right to.

On the positional issue: he was unfortunate with the Barkley injury and delay in him returning at the start of the season. By then he had a quandary to deal with: Naismith and his goals. That was the source of all the strange line ups he went with. Again, as with the absence of EL footy these past few weeks, when that's resolved we are a football team again. But Martinez failed to grasp the nettle on that.

That Naismith affair and the penalty taking situation does have me wondering a bit about RM.

Well yes I agree with that. Martinez seemed to really want to prioritise the Europa league. The cynic in me says it is to boost his profile on the European stage for future jobs. But it could as easily be that being European he holds the Europa league in higher regard. Or that he prioritises competitions we can win over ones where we won't win. I agree with you that I'd probably prefer a Moyes type attitude to it (that you blood younger players and fringe players in it) but won't knock Martinez for taking it seriously as that's just the type of manager and person he is.

I agree with Barkley. For all the Kopite whining re Sturridge we are the real ones who have suffered a hangover from England. Baines's confidence knocked. Jagielka's confidence shot and Barkley looking completely lost on return from the world cup squad. It has taken us until the second half of the season to get them all back on track.

The emergence of Naismith certainly caused Martinez a dilemma. I also think Martinez was trying to take Barkley's game to the "next level" and have him adapting to a different position. I think he was probably hoping he could take over from Osman/Peinaar as our creative wide man. He is not suited to that role and I doubt ever will be so I hope that experiment has been canned.

I don't know if Martinez failed to grasp the nettle. We tried lots of things in that period but we needed some good fortune to go our way to get us through that period. We were in crisis and I think he has coped as well as could have been expected in those circumstances. He will now be judge don this summer though. We do still need to move players on and he can't fudge that issue any longer.

I'm not sure what you mean by wondering a bit? I think reading between the lines Baines has made it known he doesn't fancy penalties any longer. I suspect that may have happened before the Mirallas incident (I have reigned in my criticism of him a bit since then). I think Martinez should have been bolder on who the penalties were taken by. But Again I think this is a cultural difference. In England it's a big thing, symbolic. I think Martinez sees it as an afterthought and is more focused on the other 89 minutes of the game. I quite like that.

As with the Europa league thing though, love him or loathe him overall he has done a decent job so far and deserves credit for that. He is moving us on from Moyes which is a good thing and more importantly a needed thing. That doesn't mean everything he has done is perfect and everything Moyes did was wrong, but the general trajectory is positive.

 

[Will Escott]

I personally don't understand this premise of slogging your balls to get into Europe, use the lure of european football to attract bigger name players then play fringe players when in the competition. If that's the case then why bother? I think the bigger problem has been the players brought in not stepping up (McGeady, Eto'o, Atsu) and injuries to key players at the beginning of the season, particularly McCarthy and Stones. If those 2 weren't injured I doubt we'd have seen Barry play game after game which we clearly can't do and not having to constantly mess with the defence after the nightmare Distin had.

I still think a winter break would help us compete in Europe as it gives our players a chance to recover instead over Thursday/ Sunday football followed by all the christmas football. To me that's what has caused so many problem for Premier League clubs in the Europa League. It's ok for Champions League clubs as they have the strength in depth to manage.

 

[davek]

Well yes I agree with that. Martinez seemed to really want to prioritise the Europa league. The cynic in me says it is to boost his profile on the European stage for future jobs. But it could as easily be that being European he holds the Europa league in higher regard. Or that he prioritises competitions we can win over ones where we won't win. I agree with you that I'd probably prefer a Moyes type attitude to it (that you blood younger players and fringe players in it) but won't knock Martinez for taking it seriously as that's just the type of manager and person he is.

I agree with Barkley. For all the Kopite whining re Sturridge we are the real ones who have suffered a hangover from England. Baines's confidence knocked. Jagielka's confidence shot and Barkley looking completely lost on return from the world cup squad. It has taken us until the second half of the season to get them all back on track.

The emergence of Naismith certainly caused Martinez a dilemma. I also think Martinez was trying to take Barkley's game to the "next level" and have him adapting to a different position. I think he was probably hoping he could take over from Osman/Peinaar as our creative wide man. He is not suited to that role and I doubt ever will be so I hope that experiment has been canned.

I don't know if Martinez failed to grasp the nettle. We tried lots of things in that period but we needed some good fortune to go our way to get us through that period. We were in crisis and I think he has coped as well as could have been expected in those circumstances. He will now be judge don this summer though. We do still need to move players on and he can't fudge that issue any longer.

I'm not sure what you mean by wondering a bit? I think reading between the lines Baines has made it known he doesn't fancy penalties any longer. I suspect that may have happened before the Mirallas incident (I have reigned in my criticism of him a bit since then). I think Martinez should have been bolder on who the penalties were taken by. But Again I think this is a cultural difference. In England it's a big thing, symbolic. I think Martinez sees it as an afterthought and is more focused on the other 89 minutes of the game. I quite like that.

As with the Europa league thing though, love him or loathe him overall he has done a decent job so far and deserves credit for that. He is moving us on from Moyes which is a good thing and more importantly a needed thing. That doesn't mean everything he has done is perfect and everything Moyes did was wrong, but the general trajectory is positive.

You could well be right with the penalty scenario. I dont think it's a big deal myself, tbh. It just puzzles me that such a small thing like that which was allowed to be a source of criticism for him after the Mirallas penalty fiasco was explained away so nonchalantly after Barkley missed next time round. That's the source of my 'wonderment': just why he didn't have a convincing explanation in hand to bat that potential criticism away next time. I suppose it's good for him he takes no notice of the hacks and outsiders, but for many supporters it's apparently an issue that he doesn't appear decisive in situations like that (and more seriously with the need to make a decisive decision on avoiding squeezing square pegs in round holes by failing to make awkward decisions on benching players). He did very well coming through that very rough period when rumblings of discontent threatened to break out into a threat to his job. He looked like he was rocking a bit after the Stoke game but he pulled it around and I dont see him facing a crisis like that again while he's here.

 

[davek]

I personally don't understand this premise of slogging your balls to get into Europe, use the lure of european football to attract bigger name players then play fringe players when in the competition. If that's the case then why bother? I think the bigger problem has been the players brought in not stepping up (McGeady, Eto'o, Atsu) and injuries to key players at the beginning of the season, particularly McCarthy and Stones. If those 2 weren't injured I doubt we'd have seen Barry play game after game which we clearly can't do and not having to constantly mess with the defence after the nightmare Distin had.

I still think a winter break would help us compete in Europe as it gives our players a chance to recover instead over Thursday/ Sunday football followed by all the christmas football. To me that's what has caused so many problem for Premier League clubs in the Europa League. It's ok for Champions League clubs as they have the strength in depth to manage.

I think we should take it seriously from the KO stages on.

Imo, a club like ours with less resources in terms of core first team players need to look at the EL and use it for our purposes. We can use players coming through and those usually on the bench (which should be strong enough to cope) in the first few games of that tournament's group stage and then gamble using more first team core players if we're short of qualification and needing points. I'd always prioritise the PL and domestic cups over the EL. Hopefully we have a couple coming through the ranks that can swell the squad to decent numbers (Ledson, Dowell) and Browning and Galloway surely must begin to feature soon. I'd play those in EL stage games plus the likes of Naismith/Kone/Garbutt or Oviedo/Besic.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

I think we should take it seriously from the KO stages on.

Imo, a club like ours with less resources in terms of core first team players need to look at the EL and use it for our purposes. We can use players coming through and those usually on the bench (which should be strong enough to cope) in the first few games of that tournament's group stage and then gamble using more first team core players if we're short of qualification and needing points. I'd always prioritise the PL and domestic cups over the EL. Hopefully we have a couple coming through the ranks that can swell the squad to decent numbers (Ledson, Dowell) and Browning and Galloway surely must begin to feature soon. I'd play those in EL stage games plus the likes of Naismith/Kone/Garbutt or Oviedo/Besic.

If we don't take the EL seriously from the off there's a good chance we don't make the knockouts.

 

[chicoazul]

Yes Dave, cos that totally explains why Ross took 1 the other day.

*LOL

@davek won and made you look like the utter tit you are.

LOL.

 

[Prevenger17]

We are a mile behind Spurs, Prev and they were in the EL as well.

I'm just sayin' is all.......

Glad you picked a great game to come to last weekend

Please come over more often.

I really don't think so. Apart from Kane, Eriksen and Lloris, there's not a one of them I'd have at Everton, and I don't think I'm speaking from bias. Their back 4 is one of the worst in the league as far as I'm concerned, and they have coasted on standout individuals. Don't get me wrong, there's the makings of a decent side there, not unlike ourselves, but they have a far bigger clearout operation to attend to in the summer. I intend to get over more often next year, it really was a great experience!

 

[catcherintherye]

You could well be right with the penalty scenario. I dont think it's a big deal myself, tbh. It just puzzles me that such a small thing like that which was allowed to be a source of criticism for him after the Mirallas penalty fiasco was explained away so nonchalantly after Barkley missed next time round. That's the source of my 'wonderment': just why he didn't have a convincing explanation in hand to bat that potential criticism away next time. I suppose it's good for him he takes no notice of the hacks and outsiders, but for many supporters it's apparently an issue that he doesn't appear decisive in situations like that (and more seriously with the need to make a decisive decision on avoiding squeezing square pegs in round holes by failing to make awkward decisions on benching players). He did very well coming through that very rough period when rumblings of discontent threatened to break out into a threat to his job. He looked like he was rocking a bit after the Stoke game but he pulled it around and I dont see him facing a crisis like that again while he's here.

Well yes, my honest viewpoint is it's a cultural difference and penalty takers (much like captains) are not viewed with anywhere near the same level if importance to him. I am not saying he's right or wrong in that but it's up to him. I was very hard on Mirallas after the incident, but I sense there is probably a bit more to it than that.

I don't think he cares too much about what wider people think. I don't really mind if it irks fans too much, or indeed journalists. But I do worry if it means he isn't seen to be keeping control in the dressing room.

He has come through a major crisis, much like how Moyes did before him. He obviously needs to adapt and I think he will, as like Moyes he is a strong willed thoughtful operator. I hope though he doesn't change who he is, and adapt to the point he loses sight of his key principles as they are what distinguish him (or any manager) from others.

After our second poor season I don't think Moyes ever came out and slagged the players again. it became quite cosy and I don't think he moved players on enough. We also lost a lot of our more carefree optimism which took years to get back. He also ended up too close to Kenwright. Lets hope Martinez adapts but not too far.

 

[Khalekan]

I really don't think so. Apart from Kane, Eriksen and Lloris, there's not a one of them I'd have at Everton, and I don't think I'm speaking from bias. Their back 4 is one of the worst in the league as far as I'm concerned, and they have coasted on standout individuals. Don't get me wrong, there's the makings of a decent side there, not unlike ourselves, but they have a far bigger clearout operation to attend to in the summer. I intend to get over more often next year, it really was a great experience!

No.....I don't disagree with you about our squad being at least as good as theirs.

I am saying they have had a more productive league season than us despite being in the EL, same as us......they should be in a European slot again when the season ends and in fact, they are still not mathematically out of finishing in the CL placings with four games left.

Plus they reached a cup final.

What I am really saying is the EL has not, IMO had the detrimental eddect on our season as many believe it has.

There were other factors which contributed more to our midwinter collapse.

 

[davek]

If we don't take the EL seriously from the off there's a good chance we don't make the knockouts.

That's just hard lines then. My belief is that we cant fight on a Euro and domestic front at the same time in the first half of the season without using our resources sensibly. Usually the group you get has about two who should easily go through anyway - us and another decent team. We had Lille plus Wolfsburg this time which was a little more tough..

I'm not saying tank in that competition, just that we take it more seriously after the new year (when we next take part).