Current Affairs Labour and Anti Semitism.......

[NilSatisOptimum]

The country as a whole is centre-right leaning and are seeing the Tories lurch to the hard right and abandoning what's best for the country, and they're looking for a palatable alternative. Corbyn isn't that - he might sneak an election win (and it's looking more possible as all the stars align for him) but it'll be a close call.

There was a time when the UK was centre right, however, thats a very antiquated veiw point now. The country as a whole been moving to the left for sometime.
That's reflected by current Labour policy being popular and the Tory party playing catch up with state interventions in the energy market and the train systems. By default this current government would not interfere however, they are being wrong footed by the 'needs of the many'. Another example of this move to the left was the social care tax the Conservatives floated before the last election the whole home owning nation became stauch Socialists over night, wanting to suckle on the teet of the state rather than pay for their care through the equity of their homes, thus much preferring NI system for elderly care.

And there are food banks absolutely everywhere, not cities towns, market towns but small rural villages. That was just not the case in the past. And homeless people are not just in cities and towns people are pitching up homeless in small villages.

It's was always going to be the case with the Conservative austerity of being personally affected by the Austerity program, most don't think about the state until they need it or family or close friend requires it's support, now we have passed the tipping point and stark reality of Austerity. Yet the real fat of local authorities monies is wrapped up child care and care for the elderly as Northamptonshire and Sussex council are finding out just as Surrey did no doubt others to.

 

[Tubey]

There was a time when the UK was centre right, however, thats a very antiquated veiw point now. The country as a whole been moving to the left for sometime.
That's reflected by current Labour policy being popular and the Tory party playing catch up with state interventions in the energy market and the train systems. By default this current government would not interfere however, they are being wrong footed by the 'needs of the many'. Another example of this move to the left was the social care tax the Conservatives floated before the last election the whole home owning nation became stauch Socialists over night, wanting to suckle on the teet of the state rather than pay for their care through the equity of their homes, thus much preferring NI system for elderly care.

And there are food banks absolutely everywhere, not cities towns, market towns but small rural villages. That was just not the case in the past. And homeless people are not just in cities and towns people are pitching up homeless in small villages.

It's was always going to be the case with the Conservative austerity of being personally affected by the Austerity program, most don't think about the state until they need it or family or close friend requires it's support, now we have passed the tipping point and stark reality of Austerity. Yet the real fat of local authorities monies is wrapped up child care and care for the elderly as Northamptonshire and Sussex council are finding out just as Surrey did no doubt others to.

That's the truth of the matter. Large swathes of the UK are right wing, with the inner city areas being more inclined to the left.

I think it's wishful thinking to believe the UK is anything but right leaning overall. Even with Brexit and the worst sustained period of austerity in living memory, the Conservatives still won the popular vote and had the most seats in parliament in 2017, and even now - when even ardent Tory supporters would struggle to give you one reason to vote Theresa May - the polls are still deadlocked. I don't need to provide any more evidence than that.

 

[Joey66]

There was a time when the UK was centre right, however, thats a very antiquated veiw point now. The country as a whole been moving to the left for sometime.
That's reflected by current Labour policy being popular and the Tory party playing catch up with state interventions in the energy market and the train systems. By default this current government would not interfere however, they are being wrong footed by the 'needs of the many'. Another example of this move to the left was the social care tax the Conservatives floated before the last election the whole home owning nation became stauch Socialists over night, wanting to suckle on the teet of the state rather than pay for their care through the equity of their homes, thus much preferring NI system for elderly care.

And there are food banks absolutely everywhere, not cities towns, market towns but small rural villages. That was just not the case in the past. And homeless people are not just in cities and towns people are pitching up homeless in small villages.

It's was always going to be the case with the Conservative austerity of being personally affected by the Austerity program, most don't think about the state until they need it or family or close friend requires it's support, now we have passed the tipping point and stark reality of Austerity. Yet the real fat of local authorities monies is wrapped up child care and care for the elderly as Northamptonshire and Sussex council are finding out just as Surrey did no doubt others to.

While the rest of Europe is leaning to the right.........
momentum may have raised their membership numbers , but its the vote in the ballot box that counts when a garden land tax is muted by Labour.........
Likewise I will never vote tory or Lib/dem -
so untill Labour gets a clean noteworthy leader imo they may be doomed even V a weak Government........

 

[abelard]

That's the truth of the matter. Large swathes of the UK are right wing, with the inner city areas being more inclined to the left.

I think it's wishful thinking to believe the UK is anything but right leaning overall. Even with Brexit and the worst sustained period of austerity in living memory, the Conservatives still won the popular vote and had the most seats in parliament in 2017, and even now - when even ardent Tory supporters would struggle to give you one reason to vote Theresa May - the polls are still deadlocked. I don't need to provide any more evidence than that.

It is easy to confuse what people think they are voting for with what they actually believe.

When you poll the two parties' policies rather than their brands, Labour wins overwhelmingly, every time. And even more so now that Corbyn supporters control its agenda.

The key is having leadership which can stay on point and make the sure the message doesn't get diluted, by a media which is more than happy to ignore or distort what Labour actually represents (and internally, among even core members of the Corbyn hierarchy, it is not clear that Labour currently enjoys this leadership).

As I posted elsewhere, it is always instructive to witness this played out:

https://www.ft.com/content/f2632c6e-4e1d-11e8-a7a9-37318e776bab

"The nine middle-aged men sitting round the table in the Holiday Inn were stumped. They had just been asked to name the chancellor of the exchequer.

“I can see him now, slim build…”, said one.

“Old guy,” said another.

“He’s rich.”

“Oh, God who is he?”

Eventually, they were given the right answer: Philip Hammond.

BritainThinks, a research and strategy group, held three separate focus groups last month in Southampton and Barnet, involving mostly self-employed or white-collar “swing” voters. They wanted to find out what people think about politics in 2018 — and, in particular, how they feel about the Labour party’s policies under Jeremy Corbyn.

BritainThinks also carried out a survey this month of more than 2,000 eligible voters as part of its research, which showed that just two in five people could name Mr Hammond as the current chancellor.

But the majority surveyed supported Mr Corbyn’s manifesto pledges, including plans to increase taxes, strengthen workers’ rights, crack down on executive pay and nationalise utilities.

For example, 55 per cent of respondents “strongly” agreed that taxes should be higher for people earning over £70,000 a year. Just 9 per cent of respondents “strongly” disagreed.

Thirty-nine per cent of respondents “strongly” backed a 20:1 cap on the ratio between an employer’s highest and lowest-paid workers, while just 8 per cent “strongly” opposed one.

In the focus group in Southampton, the men were also keen on a cap on the difference between the pay of executives and their employees, and the nationalisation of the water, energy and rail industries.

But when asked whether the policies belonged to the Conservative or Labour party, three quickly replied in succession: “Conservative”.

When the men were told that the policies belonged to Mr Corbyn’s Labour party, not Theresa May’s Conservatives, they went cold, with one calling them “rubbish”.

“Their sums don’t add up,” said another participant, adding: “Although we haven’t seen the sums. We’re assuming they’re not going to add up.”


^^^achieving this effect is literally why public relations were invented

 

[Joey66]

There was a time when the UK was centre right, however, thats a very antiquated veiw point now. The country as a whole been moving to the left for sometime.
That's reflected by current Labour policy being popular and the Tory party playing catch up with state interventions in the energy market and the train systems. By default this current government would not interfere however, they are being wrong footed by the 'needs of the many'. Another example of this move to the left was the social care tax the Conservatives floated before the last election the whole home owning nation became stauch Socialists over night, wanting to suckle on the teet of the state rather than pay for their care through the equity of their homes, thus much preferring NI system for elderly care.

And there are food banks absolutely everywhere, not cities towns, market towns but small rural villages. That was just not the case in the past. And homeless people are not just in cities and towns people are pitching up homeless in small villages.

It's was always going to be the case with the Conservative austerity of being personally affected by the Austerity program, most don't think about the state until they need it or family or close friend requires it's support, now we have passed the tipping point and stark reality of Austerity. Yet the real fat of local authorities monies is wrapped up child care and care for the elderly as Northamptonshire and Sussex council are finding out just as Surrey did no doubt others to.

While the rest of Europe is leaning to the right.........
momentum may have raised their membership numbers , but its the vote in the ballot box that counts when a garden land tax is muted by Labour.........
Likewise I will never vote tory or lib dem only when a decent Labour leader with centre ground rules wins the day without the baggage Corbyn has atm..........

 

[tsubaki]

Yes, by default. The Tories are that bad. The country as a whole is centre-right leaning and are seeing the Tories lurch to the hard right and abandoning what's best for the country, and they're looking for a palatable alternative. Corbyn isn't that - he might sneak an election win (and it's looking more possible as all the stars align for him) but it'll be a close call.

If one of the other leadership candidates from 2015 had won, I'm fairly certain there'd be a Labour government now. This isn't the argument you should be making as it isn't a strong one; your argument should be whether you'd have wanted a centre-left Labour party in power regardless, as it's quite clear that you and your ilk don't see them as part of your party anymore.

Tubey where is the evidence for this?

As has been pointed out by various posters the centre-left have been getting beat all over Europe, and the centre left here got beat twice this decade. They even lost a contest in their own party (in Kendall’s case really badly). Surely to buck this trend they’d have to be women and men of vision, charm and appeal rather than people who have hid for the past three years and done nothing to understand what has happened. What outstanding figure has emerged from the Labour right since 2015?

As for the centrists not being welcome in the party nothing could be further from the truth (at least to me) - a healthy political party should have as many as possible sets of views and experiences within it so as to allow a good quality of discussion and better politics to result from that.

The problem with the centrists is they don’t want that; they want their control back with all that entails (expulsions, denial of votes, fixes of votes, imposed candidates etc).

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It is easy to confuse what people think they are voting for with what they actually believe.

When you poll the two parties' policies rather than their brands, Labour wins overwhelmingly, every time. And even more so now that Corbyn supporters control its agenda.

Even after the Brexit fiasco, are we still giving the 'what people think is best' any credibility at all?

 

[Tubey]

It is easy to confuse what people think they are voting for with what they actually believe.

When you poll the two parties' policies rather than their brands, Labour wins overwhelmingly, every time. And even more so now that Corbyn supporters control its agenda.

The key is having leadership which can stay on point and make the sure the message doesn't get diluted, by a media which is more than happy to ignore or distort what Labour actually represents (and internally, among even core members of the Corbyn hierarchy, it is not clear that Labour currently enjoys this leadership).

As I posted elsewhere, it is always instructive to witness this played out:

https://www.ft.com/content/f2632c6e-4e1d-11e8-a7a9-37318e776bab

"The nine middle-aged men sitting round the table in the Holiday Inn were stumped. They had just been asked to name the chancellor of the exchequer.

“I can see him now, slim build…”, said one.

“Old guy,” said another.

“He’s rich.”

“Oh, God who is he?”

Eventually, they were given the right answer: Philip Hammond.

BritainThinks, a research and strategy group, held three separate focus groups last month in Southampton and Barnet, involving mostly self-employed or white-collar “swing” voters. They wanted to find out what people think about politics in 2018 — and, in particular, how they feel about the Labour party’s policies under Jeremy Corbyn.

BritainThinks also carried out a survey this month of more than 2,000 eligible voters as part of its research, which showed that just two in five people could name Mr Hammond as the current chancellor.

But the majority surveyed supported Mr Corbyn’s manifesto pledges, including plans to increase taxes, strengthen workers’ rights, crack down on executive pay and nationalise utilities.

For example, 55 per cent of respondents “strongly” agreed that taxes should be higher for people earning over £70,000 a year. Just 9 per cent of respondents “strongly” disagreed.

Thirty-nine per cent of respondents “strongly” backed a 20:1 cap on the ratio between an employer’s highest and lowest-paid workers, while just 8 per cent “strongly” opposed one.

In the focus group in Southampton, the men were also keen on a cap on the difference between the pay of executives and their employees, and the nationalisation of the water, energy and rail industries.

But when asked whether the policies belonged to the Conservative or Labour party, three quickly replied in succession: “Conservative”.

When the men were told that the policies belonged to Mr Corbyn’s Labour party, not Theresa May’s Conservatives, they went cold, with one calling them “rubbish”.

“Their sums don’t add up,” said another participant, adding: “Although we haven’t seen the sums. We’re assuming they’re not going to add up.”


^^^achieving this effect is literally why public relations were invented

There's a well known little story about coffee which is relevant here.

See, a focus group was undertaken to find out which coffee people prefer the most so that they can cater to their needs.

When asked, most people responded with a "rich, dark roast" rather than "weaker, milky coffee". When the company released the coffee, it bombed, because people didn't really want a rich dark roast when it came to buying the product - they simply thought it was the 'correct' answer to give to the question.

This is why the phenomenon known as the 'Shy Tory' exists. If you ask them publicly questions like the ones you've listed, they'll give you the 'correct' answer, yet when they get to the polls, they'll vote for what they actually want.

They know what they want, but they won't say what they want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias

This is a real thing. It's what happens with Labour's policies, as they are the 'nice' policies that favour the less fortunate in society. But at the polls? People in the UK look after number one first and foremost.

 

[abelard]

Even after the Brexit fiasco, are we still giving the 'what people think is best' any credibility at all?

Brexit was not entirely, but certainly decisively, a visceral (and admittedly uninformed) protest against austerity

Sounds like you appreciate the Ol' Eastern Bloc more than you realise...

 

[abelard]

There's a well known little story about coffee which is relevant here.

See, a focus group was undertaken to find out which coffee people prefer the most so that they can cater to their needs.

When asked, most people responded with a "rich, dark roast" rather than "weaker, milky coffee". When the company released the coffee, it bombed, because people didn't really want a rich dark roast when it came to buying the product - they simply thought it was the 'correct' answer to give to the question.

This is why the phenomenon known as the 'Shy Tory' exists. If you ask them publicly questions like the ones you've listed, they'll give you the 'correct' answer, yet when they get to the polls, they'll vote for what they actually want.

They know what they want, but they won't say what they want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias

This is a real thing. It's what happens with Labour's policies, as they are the 'nice' policies that favour the less fortunate in society. But at the polls? People in the UK look after number one first and foremost.

Right. And you're arguing that what construction workers actually want is to cut funding to their own hospitals and schools so that people who earn over £70,000k can pay lower taxes?

If we learned nothing else from 2017, it's that there are a lot more shy Corbynistas than shy Tories

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Brexit was not entirely, but certainly decisively, a visceral (and admittedly uninformed) protest against austerity

Sounds like you appreciate the Ol' Eastern Bloc more than you realise...

Of course, I have an affection for the region, and it saddens me enormously the leaders they have (and indeed, the level of support those leaders enjoy). There's a rich heritage in the area that isn't much known about in the UK, and it's being distorted at the moment by charlatans. Czech alone has such a rich tradition of liberal thinkers and artists, to think of who they've had in charge since Havel sadly passed away is little shy of a tragedy.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Brexit was not entirely, but certainly decisively, a visceral (and admittedly uninformed) protest against austerity

Sounds like you appreciate the Ol' Eastern Bloc more than you realise...

Of course, I have an affection for the region, and it saddens me enormously the leaders they have (and indeed, the level of support those leaders enjoy). There's a rich heritage in the area that isn't much known about in the UK, and it's being distorted at the moment by charlatans. Czech alone has such a rich tradition of liberal thinkers and artists, to think of who they've had in charge since Havel sadly passed away is little shy of a tragedy.

 

[abelard]

Of course, I have an affection for the region, and it saddens me enormously the leaders they have (and indeed, the level of support those leaders enjoy). There's a rich heritage in the area that isn't much known about in the UK, and it's being distorted at the moment by charlatans. Czech alone has such a rich tradition of liberal thinkers and artists, to think of who they've had in charge since Havel sadly passed away is little shy of a tragedy.

Sure. But I think it was actually Novotny who famously said "are we still giving 'what people think is best' any credibility at all?" ; )

 

[Tubey]

Right. And you're arguing that construction workers want people who earn over £70,000k to pay lower taxes, and they're willing to cut funding to their own hospitals, transit, schools etc to make it happen?

If we learned nothing else from 2017, it's that there are a lot more shy Corbynistas than shy Tories

There isn't. There's simply more people annoyed with the incompetence of the Tories and a fraction of them are swinging over.

Hence my argument for the centre-left winning elections by default in Britain right now, because loads of Tory voters would have switched sides given a viable alternative. It's largely common sense - have a palatable alternative and people will stop voting for the party that is crap and give the alternative a bash.

And no, not construction workers - they aren't the issue. The reason that swing isn't happening is because Britain is predominantly middle class and the middle classes are seeing nothing but a hard left nutjob who'd destroy the economy and leave the country worse for them and their children. This is why May has held consistent leads over Corbyn in personal favourability ratings pretty much forever.

 

[abelard]

There isn't. There's simply more people annoyed with the incompetence of the Tories and a fraction of them are swinging over.

Hence my argument for the centre-left winning elections by default in Britain right now, because loads of Tory voters would have switched sides given a viable alternative. It's largely common sense - have a palatable alternative and people will stop voting for the party that is crap and give the alternative a bash.

And no, not construction workers - they aren't the issue. The reason that swing isn't happening is because Britain is predominantly middle class and the middle classes are seeing nothing but a hard left nutjob who'd destroy the economy and leave the country worse for them and their children. This is why May has held consistent leads over Corbyn in personal favourability ratings pretty much forever.

The only thing that saved the Tories in 2017 were longstanding Labour-supporting Brexit constituencies in the North and the Midlands. Labour swept virtually every middle-class urban centre, including former Tory bastions like Canterbury.

It is precisely the construction workers of Mansfield and Nuneaton who voted for the "rich, dark roast" of 'standing up for Britain' and 'punish the scroungers', but who actually very much prefer the 'weaker milky coffee' of decent health care and schools, and fewer rich people being permitted to utterly take the piss