2018/19 Kieran Dowell

Lanolin · January 31, 2019

Philw said:
I didn't say Martinez gave him 2 starts, just games Tho I did forget the other was after he left

Can't really consider what Karanka has done this year in relation to Dowell though imo. If they were both still there maybe he would have used him more as he was being used under Warburton.

If Silva prefers the competition doesn't mean he doesn't rate him, whereas I think you could say that about the previous two (Koe/All).

Yeah that's fair.

I've said before that I think Dowell is very talented, and if he can put it all together he can be a very good player, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me that nobody ever seems to really back him to produce. Of course it might just be bad luck on his part with the managers he's had, but on the other hand it might be that they're right. It's one thing not being picked by one manager but when it becomes a recurring theme i'd be inclined to think there's something to it.

johnnydawg68 · January 31, 2019

I understand the points people make about Siggy and pressing and "working hard". But my question is twofold: 1) Do we we really want our most creative players to be expending all that energy trying to press the ball? Is that really the best use of their talents, and is anyone with the skill set of a Dowell every really going to be good enough at that to make it worth being knackered in the second half when you really want them to be focusing on creating opportunities? 2) If we want to persist with a high pressing style, couldn't that more effectively be accomplished with different strikers and a change in shape defensively, were the #10 drops deeper into midfield and is in position to both join the attack when the ball is turned over, or act as the catalyst going forward when possession is gained deeper in our half.

Can someone who knows more than I do correct me on those two points?

jceverton · February 1, 2019

Lanolin said:
Well we’re talking about Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, silva and karanka. Obviously none of them are the worlds greatest managers, but the point still stands.

C’mon you can’t include Martinez in that, he’s on record as saying what a unique talent he was for an English player & he did give him some small game time. When Dowell was flying playing for the U21, Martinez was under intense pressure and fighting for his job. A fight he lost. I wouldn’t expect him to start Dowell in that situation but he made it perfectly clear that he rated him and I think it’s a reasonable assumption to make that had Martinez stayed he’d have given Dowell more game time. Warburton clearly rated him, Unsworth clearly rated him, England managers have clearly rated him. So my point stands, it depends who’s making the judgement.

messymascot · February 1, 2019

jceverton said:
C’mon you can’t include Martinez in that, he’s on record as saying what a unique talent he was for an English player & he did give him some small game time. When Dowell was flying playing for the U21, Martinez was under intense pressure and fighting for his job. A fight he lost. I wouldn’t expect him to start Dowell in that situation but he made it perfectly clear that he rated him and I think it’s a reasonable assumption to make that had Martinez stayed he’d have given Dowell more game time. Warburton clearly rated him, Unsworth clearly rated him, England managers have clearly rated him. So my point stands, it depends who’s making the judgement.

He is a good player but perhaps he will have to leave to achieve his ambitions.

leslad · February 1, 2019

johnnydawg68 said:
I understand the points people make about Siggy and pressing and "working hard". But my question is twofold: 1) Do we we really want our most creative players to be expending all that energy trying to press the ball? Is that really the best use of their talents, and is anyone with the skill set of a Dowell every really going to be good enough at that to make it worth being knackered in the second half when you really want them to be focusing on creating opportunities? 2) If we want to persist with a high pressing style, couldn't that more effectively be accomplished with different strikers and a change in shape defensively, were the #10 drops deeper into midfield and is in position to both join the attack when the ball is turned over, or act as the catalyst going forward when possession is gained deeper in our half.

Can someone who knows more than I do correct me on those two points?

The most successful players in my opinion combine both skill and work rate. They have to both to succeed.

Lanolin · February 1, 2019

jceverton said:
C’mon you can’t include Martinez in that, he’s on record as saying what a unique talent he was for an English player & he did give him some small game time. When Dowell was flying playing for the U21, Martinez was under intense pressure and fighting for his job. A fight he lost. I wouldn’t expect him to start Dowell in that situation but he made it perfectly clear that he rated him and I think it’s a reasonable assumption to make that had Martinez stayed he’d have given Dowell more game time. Warburton clearly rated him, Unsworth clearly rated him, England managers have clearly rated him. So my point stands, it depends who’s making the judgement.

Yeah to be fair until @Philw mentioned it I'd forgotten he was only 18 when Martinez had him. I really wouldn't take any notice of a Roberto soundbite about him though, he called everyone a unique talent, it's just his way. Unless you think Tom Cleverley really is 'one of the most sensational players in premier league history' and Leandro is an 'elite talent' I think we'd be better just leave Martinez out of the conversation entirely. My point was more that nobody had ever deemed him ready for PL football, so his England under 7s coaches and 50% of his managers in the championship don't really count.

Philw · February 1, 2019

Lanolin said:
Yeah to be fair until @Philw mentioned it I'd forgotten he was only 18 when Martinez had him. I really wouldn't take any notice of a Roberto soundbite about him though, he called everyone a unique talent, it's just his way. Unless you think Tom Cleverley really is 'one of the most sensational players in premier league history' and Leandro is an 'elite talent' I think we'd be better just leave Martinez out of the conversation entirely. My point was more that nobody had ever deemed him ready for PL football, so his England under 7s coaches and 50% of his managers in the championship don't really count.

Tbf I think many would say that Koeman and Allardyce are terrible managers so they don't count either!! :eek:

Tbh, there are a few people who contribute to the Youth Teams thread whose opinions I rate more than those two!

Lanolin · February 1, 2019

Philw said:
Tbf I think many would say that Koeman and Allardyce are terrible managers so they don't count either!! Tbh, there are a few people who contribute to the Youth Teams thread whose opinions I rate more than those two!

A very fair point! I didn't really mean that in the way I think it sounded. I meant I wasn't referring to whether he's rated as a junior because obviously he is, just that the original point was about him getting into our team so I was only referring to our managers not thinking he was doing enough to get a chance.

banno · February 1, 2019

How is he doing at Sheff Utd? Is he getting game time?

johnnydawg68 · February 1, 2019

banno said:
How is he doing at Sheff Utd? Is he getting game time?

Was in the starting lineup in their last game v Norwich - which was a huge game, so that's a good sign.

jceverton · February 1, 2019

messymascot said:
He is a good player but perhaps he will have to leave to achieve his ambitions.

You may be right. Personally I think we should use a buy back clause with Dowell if we do that.

messymascot · February 1, 2019

jceverton said:
You may be right. Personally I think we should use a buy back clause with Dowell if we do that.

He's a certain type of player and if he finds the right team he will be starman. Unfortunately we are not good enough to have him in our team which us a shame. If we insert buy back if we ever get our house in order bring him back as finished article. Everton will have become the new Chelski/Barca!

blueblueday · February 1, 2019

johnnydawg68 said:
I understand the points people make about Siggy and pressing and "working hard". But my question is twofold: 1) Do we we really want our most creative players to be expending all that energy trying to press the ball? Is that really the best use of their talents, and is anyone with the skill set of a Dowell every really going to be good enough at that to make it worth being knackered in the second half when you really want them to be focusing on creating opportunities? 2) If we want to persist with a high pressing style, couldn't that more effectively be accomplished with different strikers and a change in shape defensively, were the #10 drops deeper into midfield and is in position to both join the attack when the ball is turned over, or act as the catalyst going forward when possession is gained deeper in our half.

Can someone who knows more than I do correct me on those two points?

I'm not tactically astute enough to answer you. However in answer to creative players pressing the answer is yes they should. To earn the big bucks it's not good enough anymore to not chip in with defensive duties. Look at the top of the league. Not sure any of the first 11 of those teams are allowed to waltz around gingerly. I'm probably wrong though.