2018/19 Kieran Dowell

[blueblue]

The irony of the last few pages is that if you want a player who disappears and does little in games other than score then Siggurdson's your man and he pretty much plays every match!

I agree with a lot of what you say but Sigurdsson does work hard in a game, I think Dowell is more creative but less hard working.

Dowell should be looking at somebody like De Bruyne as a role model, talented ,hard working and always involved in the game. Then again it took De Bruyne a few years to get to that level.

 

[Barnfred 55]

That's good then, so basically he's just not able to push Bernard and Siggy for a place

I'm not sure I fully understand your post.

Earlier in the season you would have said that Bernard and Siggy were a world away from what Kieran would bring performance wise, although it has to be said that he hadn't really been given much of an opportunity at that stage. The chances were that he wasn't impressing the manager enough in training to merit more game time.

I reckon a decision was made by early December to send him out on loan in January. Had Silva and Brands known how much the senior players form would have dropped off, perhaps that decision to send him out on loan may not have been made. I'm sure the team couldn't have played any worse over the last 2 months had we started with Dowell in the team for the odd game ahead of Siggy, Bernard or even Gomes.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I agree with a lot of what you say but Sigurdsson does work hard in a game, I think Dowell is more creative but less hard working.

Dowell should be looking at somebody like De Bruyne as a role model, talented ,hard working and always involved in the game. Then again it took De Bruyne a few years to get to that level.

Dowell does put a decent shift in when we don't have the ball. The idea that he is lazy is a myth, it really is. He does have a languid style and possibly that does give the wrong impression, but he does put a defensive shift in.

His movement when we have possession is more of a problem. It's almost like he doesn't want the ball sometimes and he has a lot to learn in that regard.

 

[messymascot]

I remember him linking well with Kenny on the right at both club and international level. I know that was only youth teams but it was perhaps something we could have tried towards the end of the season if we had kept hold of him. With nothing to play for it would be a good opportunity to see which of these boys can take any chance offered to them. However he is now on loan to Sheffield United so hopefully he will do well and come back with a point to prove. He was given an early chance under Martinez but all these changes of manager won't have helped his development particularly as an attacking element due to managers expecting different things from their teams. This is why Silva staying is important also as we need to get the best out of our youth as it appears spending is now at a premium. Dowell has elements to his game that many players don't so if we can harness that we then have different options.

 

[APN_EFC]

I'm not sure I fully understand your post.

Earlier in the season you would have said that Bernard and Siggy were a world away from what Kieran would bring performance wise, although it has to be said that he hadn't really been given much of an opportunity at that stage. The chances were that he wasn't impressing the manager enough in training to merit more game time.

I reckon a decision was made by early December to send him out on loan in January. Had Silva and Brands known how much the senior players form would have dropped off, perhaps that decision to send him out on loan may not have been made. I'm sure the team couldn't have played any worse over the last 2 months had we started with Dowell in the team for the odd game ahead of Siggy, Bernard or even Gomes.

Yeah, what I said doesn't make sense.

I meant that he was decent, but not good enough to push for Gylfi's position, and even to be back up, which is probably Bernard, at a stretch Gomes or even Lookman, if the first 2 were injured. I didn't realise he's actually good at tracking back and I do understand that people who look slim and languid, get a raw deal because it seems like they are not bringing energy, aggression and defence.

I think the main point with our squad size, and with Dowell is that there should be a realistic chance that he can get in the team (if he plays well and keeps training well) and the people occupying his position - say GYlfi and Gomes - should have a real threat to their place, if they don't perform well. At the moment, neither are true. The only positions where that could be true are the wide attackers, left back, centre back. Pickford, Coleman, Gana, Richarlison, Gomes and Gylfi don't have a credible squad player pushing them to perform better.

 

[jceverton]

Dowell does put a decent shift in when we don't have the ball. The idea that he is lazy is a myth, it really is. He does have a languid style and possibly that does give the wrong impression, but he does put a defensive shift in.

His movement when we have possession is more of a problem. It's almost like he doesn't want the ball sometimes and he has a lot to learn in that regard.

Agreed, the amount of time this gets mentioned but its just not true. I think Unsworth worked on this a fair bit with him. He's not a ball winner but he does his fare share.

 

[jceverton]

Prem just appears too quick and intense for him,pity as he has talent.

How exactly would we know that, given he's only started one game in 3 years? To make this judgement you'd have to watch him over a good number of games because young players will improve as they adjust to the pace of playing at a higher level.

 

[Lanolin]

Agreed, the amount of time this gets mentioned but its just not true. I think Unsworth worked on this a fair bit with him. He's not a ball winner but he does his fare share.

From what I’ve seen of him it’s not laziness as such, it’s a lack of awareness. Barkley was the same, as is Lookman. It’s not that they’re deliberately shirking, they just don’t really do a lot defensively because they aren’t switched on to that side of the game.

 

[jceverton]

This is the key point in the whole thing for me. I'm not just talking about Dowell but all the talk of 'how will we ever know if we don't give him a try' and 'i'm amazed we've never tried to get him to change position' ignores the fact that the people (and different people at that) working with him every day have never seemed to feel that he's worth a run in the team. At some point Occam's razor has to come into it, is it more likely that all the coaches and managers he's had are wrong, or that a fan who's seen him a handful of times is wrong?

Depends who's making the judgement. Personally i wouldn't give any credence to Koeman or Allardyce's judgement on a young creative player like Dowell. If we'd been managed by Pochetino and the same thing had happened then yes i'd take notice of that.

 

[Lanolin]

Depends who's making the judgement. Personally i wouldn't give any credence to Koeman or Allardyce's judgement on a young creative player like Dowell. If we'd been managed by Pochetino and the same thing had happened then yes i'd take notice of that.

Well we’re talking about Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, silva and karanka. Obviously none of them are the worlds greatest managers, but the point still stands.

 

[davids]

How exactly would we know that, given he's only started one game in 3 years? To make this judgement you'd have to watch him over a good number of games because young players will improve as they adjust to the pace of playing at a higher level.

Players like Davies and DCL don't get much slack,what makes you believe the fan base will treat him any differently? If he's doing it in training doubt he'd be going out on loan.

 

[Dario Terracotta]

I agree with a lot of what you say but Sigurdsson does work hard in a game, I think Dowell is more creative but less hard working.

Dowell should be looking at somebody like De Bruyne as a role model, talented ,hard working and always involved in the game. Then again it took De Bruyne a few years to get to that level.

You can accommodate a "luxury" player, we did with Sheeds,the problem being this current side do not have the components to allow a Dowell type player too flourish,aaaaarrrgghh chalk and cheese comparing those two sides and actually comparing young Dowell to Sheeds,but hopefully you get my drift!!

 

[Philw]

Agreed, the amount of time this gets mentioned but its just not true. I think Unsworth worked on this a fair bit with him. He's not a ball winner but he does his fare share.

How exactly would we know that, given he's only started one game in 3 years? To make this judgement you'd have to watch him over a good number of games because young players will improve as they adjust to the pace of playing at a higher level.

The great GOT scouting and player analysis department at work there. Make (or recycle) a judgement on a player without actually watching him play, then stick to it 'til the death...

Well we’re talking about Martinez, Koeman, Allardyce, silva and karanka. Obviously none of them are the worlds greatest managers, but the point still stands.

Martinez: Gave him his only 2 Prem games so far. Dowell was 18 at the time.
Koeman/Allardayce: As discussed.
Karanka: Defence first Koeman/Allardyce type who completely changed their style and lost as many games as he won before leaving the club.
Silva: Jury's out on Silva still, but we had a very large squad and he probably wasn't going to get many games here considering all the other competition in his position.

 

[Lanolin]

The great GOT scouting and player analysis department at work there. Make (or recycle) a judgement on a player without actually watching him play, then stick to it 'til the death...



Martinez: Gave him his only 2 Prem games so far. Dowell was 18 at the time.
Koeman/Allardayce: As discussed.
Karanka: Defence first Koeman/Allardyce type who completely changed their style and lost as many games as he won before leaving the club.
Silva: Jury's out on Silva still, but we had a very large squad and he probably wasn't going to get many games here considering all the other competition in his position.

Yeah I did point out that i'm not claiming they're all great oracles of the game, but just to get a couple of things cleared up:

Martinez didn't give Dowell 2 PL games, he gave him 3 minutes of 1 game. Unsworth gave him his only PL start.

Bit disingenuous to say Karanka lost as many as he won as if it's a bad thing, considering before he came in they'd lost considerably more than they'd won. The amount of goals they scored under him didn't really change much from how much they were before either, in fact this season under him they were positively free scoring in comparison to how they were under Warburton last year, so even the defence first thing is a bit of a stretch.

With Silva, yes that was the point being made. The argument was just that we should give him a go, and I was pointing out that the fact a number of managers have refused to do it may suggest that there's a reason why. Silva is the latest in a line of them, he prefers the competition, like most of the others have.

 

[Philw]

Yeah I did point out that i'm not claiming they're all great oracles of the game, but just to get a couple of things cleared up:

Martinez didn't give Dowell 2 PL games, he gave him 3 minutes of 1 game. Unsworth gave him his only PL start.

Bit disingenuous to say Karanka lost as many as he won as if it's a bad thing, considering before he came in they'd lost considerably more than they'd won. The amount of goals they scored under him didn't really change much from how much they were before either, in fact this season under him they were positively free scoring in comparison to how they were under Warburton last year, so even the defence first thing is a bit of a stretch.

With Silva, yes that was the point being made. The argument was just that we should give him a go, and I was pointing out that the fact a number of managers have refused to do it may suggest that there's a reason why. Silva is the latest in a line of them, he prefers the competition, like most of the others have.

I didn't say Martinez gave him 2 starts, just games Tho I did forget the other was after he left

Can't really consider what Karanka has done this year in relation to Dowell though imo. If they were both still there maybe he would have used him more as he was being used under Warburton.

If Silva prefers the competition doesn't mean he doesn't rate him, whereas I think you could say that about the previous two (Koe/All).