steken1
Player Valuation: £70m
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Is 7th and "Net Spend" The Only Reason To Keep Moyes
- Thread starter nigelcoyb
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- david moyes
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THANK GOD FORUMS ARE ANONYMOUS EH?
Dell Boy
Player Valuation: £35m
Okay before I get into this I want to make clear that I am equally open to the idea that Kenwright has faults and has made mistakes during his tenure at Everton. However, the purpose of this post is Kenwright’s positives, so here goes:
1. Born in Liverpool, lifelong Evertonian
Might not mean anything to the Haters but it does to me. I’ve never seen where he’s proclaimed himself as “the world’s biggest Evertonian”. Someone link it if he has.
2. Successful ‘clean’ business career
He appears to be a successful self-made man in a business sector open to the full glare of publicity in the UK and the US. He is not a dodgy arms dealer or tinpot dictator from a third world country which has trampled all over human rights
3. Club takeover
He stepped in to save us from near-certain relegation and administration under Johnson. I’m not sure where the alternative bids were from the Arab sheiks – they must have got lost in the post
4. Stability at the top
He’s presided over a manager/chairman relationship that is the envy of most other clubs in the UK. He picked an untried manager in the first place and stuck with him through thick and thin. We are now reaping the rewards with a default position in the top third of the league
5. Positive public image
In the world today he presents a positive image of the club that 90%+ of the media and general public buy into. Whether you agree with it or not that’s a good state of affairs and should assist commercial, player and future managerial negotiations
6. Custodian of the club
I trust Kenwright not to sell the club to a dodgy character like Thaksin Shinawatra, Carson Yeung or Craig Whyte.
7. Trust
I believe him when Kenwright says he hasn’t had a serious enquiry about the club. The club is a business and has a fair market value. I don’t believe for one second there are scores of disgruntled or spurned buyers out there. I know from my own dealings in these matters that NDAs count for nothing
8. Reality check
Kenwright has presided over Everton at a time of the Premiership and its golden riches. A lot of fans seem not to appreciate the reality of the club’s position and where it stands in the modern world. We are not the Bank of England club any more. We haven’t won a championship for a couple of generations. Everton was on its arse when Kenwright took over yet now people moan we’re not spending like the sh!te or Chelsea. Of course we need the ambition but so many fans seem to oversimplify the challenges the club faces
9. Honesty
I’ve met Kenwright several times and believe him to be an honest man with integrity. From the outset, Kenwright said he wasn’t a billionaire and didn’t have bucket loads of cash to throw around. That’s a personal opinion and others are entitled to their views. But rather than sling mud around, they should provide proof before ****ging him off
10. Kenwright is an Evertonian
I know I’ve posted this twice now but I don’t care. It actually means a lot to me. Everton apart I hate the way modern football has evolved. The fact that Kenwright is an Evertonian somehow makes it more palatable for me.
1. Born in Liverpool, lifelong Evertonian
Might not mean anything to the Haters but it does to me. I’ve never seen where he’s proclaimed himself as “the world’s biggest Evertonian”. Someone link it if he has.
2. Successful ‘clean’ business career
He appears to be a successful self-made man in a business sector open to the full glare of publicity in the UK and the US. He is not a dodgy arms dealer or tinpot dictator from a third world country which has trampled all over human rights
3. Club takeover
He stepped in to save us from near-certain relegation and administration under Johnson. I’m not sure where the alternative bids were from the Arab sheiks – they must have got lost in the post
4. Stability at the top
He’s presided over a manager/chairman relationship that is the envy of most other clubs in the UK. He picked an untried manager in the first place and stuck with him through thick and thin. We are now reaping the rewards with a default position in the top third of the league
5. Positive public image
In the world today he presents a positive image of the club that 90%+ of the media and general public buy into. Whether you agree with it or not that’s a good state of affairs and should assist commercial, player and future managerial negotiations
6. Custodian of the club
I trust Kenwright not to sell the club to a dodgy character like Thaksin Shinawatra, Carson Yeung or Craig Whyte.
7. Trust
I believe him when Kenwright says he hasn’t had a serious enquiry about the club. The club is a business and has a fair market value. I don’t believe for one second there are scores of disgruntled or spurned buyers out there. I know from my own dealings in these matters that NDAs count for nothing
8. Reality check
Kenwright has presided over Everton at a time of the Premiership and its golden riches. A lot of fans seem not to appreciate the reality of the club’s position and where it stands in the modern world. We are not the Bank of England club any more. We haven’t won a championship for a couple of generations. Everton was on its arse when Kenwright took over yet now people moan we’re not spending like the sh!te or Chelsea. Of course we need the ambition but so many fans seem to oversimplify the challenges the club faces
9. Honesty
I’ve met Kenwright several times and believe him to be an honest man with integrity. From the outset, Kenwright said he wasn’t a billionaire and didn’t have bucket loads of cash to throw around. That’s a personal opinion and others are entitled to their views. But rather than sling mud around, they should provide proof before ****ging him off
10. Kenwright is an Evertonian
I know I’ve posted this twice now but I don’t care. It actually means a lot to me. Everton apart I hate the way modern football has evolved. The fact that Kenwright is an Evertonian somehow makes it more palatable for me.
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Good post mate, you have to take it all in the context and make your own mind up, frustration is a very motivating emotion and the few years of glass ceilling stuff has seen people convince themselves hes killing the club which is just not true, i think many went around for Johnson either or arent aware of the debt carried over from those days it took to get the club of him. While far from perfect, some of the stuff posted about him is a bit mad to say the least, i dont think anyone doesnt want change to getting to the next level, even Bill admits this - but some of the stuff posted about him, is wholly emotional reaction to frustration.
There is a lovely thread somewhere on the Venky's with many on here, lynching Bill and how even Blackburn could find a buyer while we are looking 24/7 - Blackburn are currently 18th in the Championship - sums it all up for me really.
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Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
Looks in thread, sees Dell's list, reads point 7 & 9, shakes head, leaves thread.
steken1
Player Valuation: £70m
Dire in every sense that took you the best part of a day!
Dell Boy
Player Valuation: £35m
I really didn't take a day to do that. I have a job and family see.
To respond to you one by one:
The BU transcript "listen there's no bigger Evertonian than me"
> That was clearly a private conversation with an Everton supporters group. It was not intended for publication. It's a stock phrase you'd say.
So he does business honestly. So do the vast majority of others. As you so keen for evidence when allegations of impropriety I assume you'll be providing some for the arms dealers, tin pot dictators and human rights abuses?There's only been one instance of a tin-pot dictator taking over a club. Hardly a massive thing to expect people not to be into ethnic cleansing or Genocide.
> Kenwright is clean. A lot of other owners/chairmen are not.
Did he? Would Johnson have put the club into administration losing all his stake? Maybe, just maybe, he bought the club as he saw it going cheap and spotted the chance to make a name for himself and a right few quid in the process? The sale price hints at his true intentions.
> That statement makes no sense at all other than you admitting how bad things were under Johnson.
Very true. He's kept a good manager sweet and had a bit of faith in him when needed. David Moyes doesn't strike me as a challenging guy to work with TBH.
> Funny the public persona of Moyes is quite the opposite but maybe you know Dave personally.
No he doesn't. He talks about begging banks not to kill us. How we can't afford to compete and how we shouldn't be anywhere near where we are. Look at our recent Commercial, Player and managerial negotiations and all are textbook on how they shouldn't go. Clearly you couldn't be more wrong.
> The public image is positive however you want to dispute it.
You trust a proven liar? Why? He said during the Kirkby enquiry that we we're not for sale at all. He also invented the FSF to see off a business rival that was keen to deliver a genuine world class stadium we so badly need.
> Have you any experience in the business world? At a planning enquiry, the proposed developing party has to declare that they are going to stay true and not see a change of control during that process. Standard textbook stuff. So at that point in time Everton had to be pulled from the shop window. Nothing untoward.
> You'll have to provide proof of these FSF lies. I'm not aware of them.
When clubs the world over are changing hands in a way never seen before, a big club in the biggest league, hasn't had a single serious enquiry??? Do you wanna buy some magic beans?
> Are you trying to be so obtuse? Yes clubs with clearer commerical opportunities have been sold. Yes clubs have been sold by dodgy owners to more dodgy owners. Yes there are few - very few - genuine success stories of any of these takeovers but don't let facts cloud your thinking.
> If there were serious enquiries then we'd have heard about them
No we weren't. We had a weak squad through lack of investment in it and bad management on the pitch. We had a net asset position. That's well gone under his watch. We're more on our arse than at any point in our history! Ironically at a time when there's never been so much money in the game.
> What a ridiculous thing to say. "we're more on our arse than at any time in our history". I've repeated it just for effect. When Kenwright took the club over we were on the verge of relegation and administration. Our team was very poor. We now have a very strong team and an established position at the top portion of the richest, most successful league in the world.
Almost everyone with eyes or ears will easily find this most disagreeable if they do even a cursory check of some of his musings. Elvis anyone?
> Provide proof of his lies or stop shaking the stick.
So is Barry Chuckle I heard.I'd rather have their Paul. He's the brains behind the operation
> Pathetic.
steken1
Player Valuation: £70m
Clutching in a big way that IMO.
Dell Boy
Player Valuation: £35m
First of all - just to repeat what I said before. I'm conscious Kenwright has made certain mistakes but in response to your comments:
"listen there's no bigger Evertonian than me". I've never claimed it.
> Lot's do mate and it's used to beat Kenwright all the time. He said that in the context of a long answer in a private discussion.
Kenwright is clean. A lot of other owners/chairmen are not. Proof?
> Of what? Kenwright is clean as day. Prove otherwise. I really don't have to prove certain chairman are dodgy. You can google a dozen names in a minute or so. As an industry the football businessmen is full of dodgy characters. We're lucky to have one that isn't.
"It makes perfect sense. He bought the club sensing an opportunity to make money. His intentions where, and still are, far from honourable or charitable."
> That is the weakest answer possible. He hasn't made any money from the club in all these years. Nothing. If he was in it for a profit he'd have sold long ago. To suggest otherwise defies sense.
Did he leave or kick up a fuss when he wen't 3 years without buying a single first team player while selling £18m worth? Hardly a ball breaker? BTW he prefers davie.
> Maybe he sees the reality of the situation and appreciates he's on a good wage at a top club
"It isn't that's why we get took for mugs. Most of the media talk about a manager who's won sweet FA as though he's far too big for the 9 time champions of England. Hardly seems positive to me?"
> I stand by the statement we have a good PR as a club. We are skint. That's a fact. Our history is great but the reality is very different.
"Really? OK"
> That's your only comeback? You said he was a proven liar. You clearly don't understand the planning system in the UK. Have you any other evidence of his lies?
"The cheque will be in the bank in the morning ring any bells?"
> More detail please.
"Whether a success or not is irrelevant to your point that you believe him that not one serious enquiry has been made in 13 years. Every club bar us in the top 2 divisions has changed hands I read. Seems massively far fetched that not a single one has been for us."
> If there were serious enquiries then we'd have heard about them. We are a basket case as a commercial proposition.
"Yet we're beyond skint and beg banks not to kill us every year"
> We're punching above our weight. The commercial reality is tough. Kenwright could sell all our best players and go back to hovering around 15th-17th. The bank would be happier then. Would you?
"listen there's no bigger Evertonian than me". I've never claimed it.
> Lot's do mate and it's used to beat Kenwright all the time. He said that in the context of a long answer in a private discussion.
Kenwright is clean. A lot of other owners/chairmen are not. Proof?
> Of what? Kenwright is clean as day. Prove otherwise. I really don't have to prove certain chairman are dodgy. You can google a dozen names in a minute or so. As an industry the football businessmen is full of dodgy characters. We're lucky to have one that isn't.
"It makes perfect sense. He bought the club sensing an opportunity to make money. His intentions where, and still are, far from honourable or charitable."
> That is the weakest answer possible. He hasn't made any money from the club in all these years. Nothing. If he was in it for a profit he'd have sold long ago. To suggest otherwise defies sense.
Did he leave or kick up a fuss when he wen't 3 years without buying a single first team player while selling £18m worth? Hardly a ball breaker? BTW he prefers davie.
> Maybe he sees the reality of the situation and appreciates he's on a good wage at a top club
"It isn't that's why we get took for mugs. Most of the media talk about a manager who's won sweet FA as though he's far too big for the 9 time champions of England. Hardly seems positive to me?"
> I stand by the statement we have a good PR as a club. We are skint. That's a fact. Our history is great but the reality is very different.
"Really? OK"
> That's your only comeback? You said he was a proven liar. You clearly don't understand the planning system in the UK. Have you any other evidence of his lies?
"The cheque will be in the bank in the morning ring any bells?"
> More detail please.
"Whether a success or not is irrelevant to your point that you believe him that not one serious enquiry has been made in 13 years. Every club bar us in the top 2 divisions has changed hands I read. Seems massively far fetched that not a single one has been for us."
> If there were serious enquiries then we'd have heard about them. We are a basket case as a commercial proposition.
"Yet we're beyond skint and beg banks not to kill us every year"
> We're punching above our weight. The commercial reality is tough. Kenwright could sell all our best players and go back to hovering around 15th-17th. The bank would be happier then. Would you?
[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HQFLkxr2g[/video]
Bastion of truth from Bill, erm when does that safety certificate run out again.
As for selling to a dodgy owner who is after a quick buck, i offer you Mr Earl. Bill maybe never intended to get us into the mess we are today, but we are.
Bastion of truth from Bill, erm when does that safety certificate run out again.
As for selling to a dodgy owner who is after a quick buck, i offer you Mr Earl. Bill maybe never intended to get us into the mess we are today, but we are.
Ihaters
Player Valuation: £35m
Only positives I can think of in Bills defense.
* He hasn't bowed to public pressure and spent money we don't have, in a futile bid to catch those with stupid money to spend.
* He has walked the fine line between new contracts and wage budget's pretty impressively.
* He got Moyes.
* We will always stay afloat with Kenwright as he gives the manager every penny the club can muster without crossing that line.
* The massive turnaround in the on-pitch fortunes, and league position of the club since he became chairman, is hard to overlook.
On the flip side... Pretty much everything else
* He hasn't bowed to public pressure and spent money we don't have, in a futile bid to catch those with stupid money to spend.
* He has walked the fine line between new contracts and wage budget's pretty impressively.
* He got Moyes.
* We will always stay afloat with Kenwright as he gives the manager every penny the club can muster without crossing that line.
* The massive turnaround in the on-pitch fortunes, and league position of the club since he became chairman, is hard to overlook.
On the flip side... Pretty much everything else
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njligernj
Player Valuation: £15m
Well the original suggestion was that we should be thankful that money from player sales was re-invested into the club. The theory being that money is profit which the owners have every right to bank. My point was that at some point if you sell all your players (or sell some and the others retire) without reinvesting the money then eventually there will be no team left. If BK didn't reinvest the money from sales he'd have no "business" left -- so I don't see that as him doing us some kind of great favour.
We'll also see this summer if "every penny" gets reinvested back into the club (not just Felli money but new TV too).
Ideally you'd want an Evertonian ... unless the love for the club made them unreasonable when it came to selling the club.
When someone uses the absence of negatives as a primary positive trait for someone it's usually not a great sign. "He's not a murderer!"
No argument here. Fair point and I am thankful for that.
Hard to quantify that but it certainly doesn't feel like we've benefited from this. I'm a big fan of the FM partnership but that happened somewhat by default because the creators are Evertonians and it's moderately moot when we can't afford to buy any players they might uncover.
I do too ... unfortunately I also "trust" him not to sell it to anyone good.
Pretty sure we've been over this before ... what benefit is there to a potential buyer to burn the bridge by outing BK as an unreasonable or unwilling seller? If they really want to buy EFC one day and are hoping they accept an under 100m offer then they won't burn that bridge. If BK is as respected as you seem to think it's possible some unknown coming in and throwing the board under the bus would mean owners of other teams would be very cautious dealing with someone who will burn you in the media if you don't want to sell for the price they think is fair. There is no benefit whatsoever for a buyer to break the NDA (even if the NDA itself is technically worthless).
steken1
Player Valuation: £70m
Stop trying to move the goalposts IT'S NOT WORKING.
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Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
Kenwright stepped in when Johnson was on his knees, in order to fulfil his dream, but he's never had the financial ability to fund it...& that's been the issue since Day 1 of his tenure.
I've taken exception in the past, to some of the outlandish, unsubstantiated, baseless, garbage, thrown in his & the clubs direction - as unless it's factual then it shouldn't be used imho. However, when we're analysing what Kenwright has actually achieved via his own hand - during his 9 years as Chairman - there's little to add to the list of positives imo, aside from sticking by Moyes.
Bills lack of serious levels of resource has undoubtedly held the club back, as we discussed yesterday when comparing his input to that of Ashley at Newcastle. Bill's added nothing to the balance sheet, nothing to the future development of the business & nothing in terms of securing the club for the next generation i.e. the stadium. He's therefore 'inert' in terms of his usefulness to us as Evertonians & therefore asking him to relinquish his position as custodian of our great club is what we should be doing, if we're to develop in the future - as we're going nowhere under Bill.
Using Venkys as a blanket reason why boardroom change should be feared is disingenuous imo, as it doesn't provide any excuse for Bills lack of vision & ability to develop Everton FC.
Dell Boy
Player Valuation: £35m
If a company was out there and had the serious cash to buy a club - and then Kenwright took the piss - then there is every benefit from putting out a story that:
- Big Bucks Inc. have $150m to put into a football club in immediate available funds. After extensive and professional due diligence they could not each a deal to buy Everton due to a disagreement on price. Big Bucks Inc. remain committed to investing in English football.
They'd have them queuing round the block.
The world today is full of blaggers that previously could get credit.
In today's world anyone with serious cash has the world at their feet.
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