Is 7th and "Net Spend" The Only Reason To Keep Moyes

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Would be interested to see how you get to that figure for Ashley. Though as an aside Brennan is happily knocking the figure Ashley has spent to acquire Newcastle just so he can have a pop at Kenwright!

Ashley bought the club for £134m in total but at least £36m was still owed on players when he bought it.

Haven't got the latest profit/loss figures but last ones show a nominal £3.5m loss.

Since he's been in charge he's overseen a net profit on transfer dealings of £19m.

It's also quoted in various places he's said himself it now washes its face as a business deal.

Abramovich went hell for leather to buy the Champions League. That was his objective. His approach kind of transcends normal business models.

The accounts.

He paid £133M on buying the club & has since put in interest free loans to the tune of £152.8M as per the last results.

The club was still making trading losses, ableit they'd fallen from over £30M p.a. to £3.9M in the last set.

The player trading profit from Carrol has since been re-invested.

I'm not sure if he tried to sell tomorrow he'd even get his cash back - as last time he tried to offload it, he got no offers anywhere near the £100M he wanted last time he tried.

Glad to see you've changed your mind about Abramovich having a 'steal' on his hands.

 

[njligernj]

What the original post was meant to mean I think is not that if we'd changed managers we'd have spent more, because clearly there hasn't been more for Moyes/N.E.Other to spend, but that if Spurs/Liverpool etc had kept one manager for the same amount of time then they would have spent less, due to the lack of player turnover usually associated with management changes.

Do you think they spend more net? Or just more overall (like a new manager sells one 10m player because he doesn't fit his system and replaces him with a different 10m player)?

 

[Brennan]

I am not a rabid Kenwright supporter. I'd welcome a new owner with cash. Problem is I don't see one on the horizon and I won't join in with the mud-slinging without good proof. Also the jibe about not putting cash in would actually carry some weight if Kenwright had promised it when he came in and took over from Johnson. He didn't. He actually said that very day he wasn't able to put in the mega bucks.

Alternatives to Moyes are out there any day we want.

A change in manager can be done overnight.

Yeah, like Neil Lennon

Walter Smith did well in Scotland.

 

[Dell Boy]

The accounts.

He paid £133M on buying the club & has since put in interest free loans to the tune of £152.8M as per the last results.

The club was still making trading losses, ableit they'd fallen from over £30M p.a. to £3.9M in the last set.

The player trading profit from Carrol has since been re-invested.

I'm not sure if he tried to sell tomorrow he'd even get his cash back - as last time he tried to offload it, he got no offers anywhere near the £100M he wanted last time he tried.

Glad to see you've changed your mind about Abramovich having a 'steal' on his hands.

Ashley has not reinvested the Carrol cash. His net transfer spending is a positive £19m profit.

For what Abramovich paid he did get a steal. It's his business what he then went on to spend.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I am not a rabid Kenwright supporter. I'd welcome a new owner with cash. Problem is I don't see one on the horizon and I won't join in with the mud-slinging without good proof. Also the jibe about not putting cash in would actually carry some weight if Kenwright had promised it when he came in and took over from Johnson. He didn't. He actually said that very day he wasn't able to put in the mega bucks.

Alternatives to Moyes are out there any day we want.

A change in manager can be done overnight.

So basically what you're saying there is that we should replace Moyes as it's 'easier' than solving the actual root cause of our problems.....

The case for the prosecution rest M'lud

 

[steken1]

IT'S BEEN 11 YEARS WITHOUT A TROPHY!!!!!!

HOW MUCH MORE PATIENT SHOULD WE BE????

Considering your talking as if you know all kinds about business valuations and accounting you're not great with numbers!

 

[Philw]

Let's forget about this whole season because we lost to Wigan in the semi's. Give it a rest. For chirst sake we all know the players didn't show up against Wigan, that had nothing to do with Mr Moyes. The players fell asleep and we got punished.

I find myself asking this question all the time, but i'll go for it again anyway; if Moyes was to leave, who on Earth would you want in? There is no better manager out there than Moyes who would even consider taking this job.

Considering we have improved this year compared to the previous few years, I am absolutely shocked that people are calling for his head. Is our team better than Arsenal or Spurs'? Is it miles better than Liverpool's? No. We are exactly where we warrant being. Too much Blues live in cuckoo land thinking we should be sitting top four easily.

How could you possibly know that? I'm pretty sure there's not one person on this board who has the knowledge necessary to say without question that there is no one else who could do better. Frankly I find that a quite ridiculous statement. Hell I couldn't even tell you in the top two English leagues that such is true.

50m or so (which is 100m once you pay off debt).

If 125-150m were a fair price then it would have sold as most fairly priced items tend to do in a market. There is a whole system for this ... it's pretty well established.

That seems low to me. Plus with regards to the debt: a - does anyone know definitively (or even an accurate estimation) what it really is; and b - can it even be paid off upfront. If not then surely it's irrelevant - it's already being serviced so is covered by our accounts, which presumably go towards establishing the price of the club. Like stend (?) said regarding some other assets, you can't count the same thing twice.

Rubbish. Just because people think it's a stupid risk to change managers doesn't mean they're happy to be 6th and trophyless. Maybe you should refrain from the debate until you have something truthful to add.

The thing is, how do you see us progressing with the current setup we have? I just don't see that Moyes can take us any further in the current climate (maybe the odd one of 4th place, but I don't have faith in him to use that as a stepping stone to better things), so for me sticking with him is settling for 6/7th place...

It's not just the amount of players though, it's the price of the players. Fair enough usually when you change managers some players will be shown the door and some will come in, but those replacements are still costing way more than Moyes could dream of spending.

Look at what Liverpool have done since Rodgers has joined, spunked £50m on mostly crap.

Spurs since AVB, they spent multiple double digit sums on players.

Even if less players had been purchased, those other players still would have cost much more than what Moyes can generally spend on a player.

Yes ofcourse, I don't disagree, but the amount is exagerated due to the management turnover. They'd still be spending more than us, just less more!! That's why I mentioned the Benitez comparison. Not so much against us, but against preiods when they had less stability at that level.

 

[zirc]

I fail to see how stupid teams overpaying for terrible players is an argument for how we can buy world-class players on our budget.

 

[Dell Boy]

Ashley has not reinvested the Carrol cash. His net transfer spending is a positive £19m profit.

.

Just to repeat that for all the Kenwright haters and wanting someone like Ashley to take over.

Ashley - net £19m profit since he took the club over 6 years ago. Sold its heritage down the river and generally took the p*ss out of fans at every stop

Kenwright - net £26m spend on players in last 8 years. Blue Union transcript is what it is but you could never say anything than he seems to be a genuine Blue at heart

Apologies for my simple maths but that's a difference of £45m in Kenwright's favour.

http://www.transferleague.co.uk

 

[Dell Boy]

Considering your talking as if you know all kinds about business valuations and accounting you're not great with numbers!

I meant under Mr David Moyes xx

 

[Philw]

Do you think they spend more net? Or just more overall (like a new manager sells one 10m player because he doesn't fit his system and replaces him with a different 10m player)?

I would say both. The likelyhood I believe is that they would end up selling players for less than their value (or that they paid), so they would both spend more on new players, and they would make a loss on individual players/like for like sales. Caveat: this is me speculating and theorizing, not looking at or having knowledge of any specific figures/transfers.

Anyway, I have to go now, supposed to be working and getting distracted!!

 

[Brennan]

How could you possibly know that? I'm pretty sure there's not one person on this board who has the knowledge necessary to say without question that there is no one else who could do better. Frankly I find that a quite ridiculous statement. Hell I couldn't even tell you in the top two English leagues that such is true.



That seems low to me. Plus with regards to the debt: a - does anyone know definitively (or even an accurate estimation) what it really is; and b - can it even be paid off upfront. If not then surely it's irrelevant - it's already being serviced so is covered by our accounts, which presumably go towards establishing the price of the club. Like stend (?) said regarding some other assets, you can't count the same thing twice.



The thing is, how do you see us progressing with the current setup we have? I just don't see that Moyes can take us any further in the current climate (maybe the odd one of 4th place, but I don't have faith in him to use that as a stepping stone to better things), so for me sticking with him is settling for 6/7th place...



Yes ofcourse, I don't disagree, but the amount is exagerated due to the management turnover. They'd still be spending more than us, just less more!! That's why I mentioned the Benitez comparison. Not so much against us, but against preiods when they had less stability at that level.

I don't see us progressing mate.

If i can give you a really rough analogy. Say i work fulltime in a restaurant and rent a crappy flat, and do nothing in life but work and sleep. Am i wholly satisfied with the situation ? Nope. Does that mean i should stick two months rent on black ? Again, nope.

Moyes has his weaknesses, but as far as i'm concerned changing manager is the least likely of the three real options we have to actually get us a trophy. I think there are two better options. Give Moyes some decent money for once (might happen), or change owners (no chance).

I'm not buzzing about finishing 7th every year, but i'd rather that at the moment than risk screwing the whole club in pursuit of a trophy.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Ashley has not reinvested the Carrol cash. His net transfer spending is a positive £19m profit.

For what Abramovich paid he did get a steal. It's his business what he then went on to spend.

You can't include the year they went down & had to offload half a dozen stars ffs.

Since their return their spend has been break even, thanks largely to the RS & the £41m they gifted them for Caroll & Enrique.

Abramovich paid for a trinket not a business, grabbing a 'steal' was never on his agenda & the £1BN he's pissed away since, proves it.

 

[zirc]

How much cash did Newcastle miss out on by spending a year in the Championship?

 

[Philw]

Ok, one last post!!

So basically what you're saying there is that we should replace Moyes as it's 'easier' than solving the actual root cause of our problems.....

The case for the prosecution rest M'lud

It does seem really wrong, but yes, because I believe there is no current solution to the actual root cause, and something needs to be done in the meantime.

I don't see us progressing mate.

If i can give you a really rough analogy. Say i work fulltime in a restaurant and rent a crappy flat, and do nothing in life but work and sleep. Am i wholly satisfied with the situation ? Nope. Does that mean i should stick two months rent on black ? Again, nope.

Moyes has his weaknesses, but as far as i'm concerned changing manager is the least likely of the three real options we have to actually get us a trophy. I think there are two better options. Give Moyes some decent money for once (might happen), or change owners (no chance).

I'm not buzzing about finishing 7th every year, but i'd rather that at the moment than risk screwing the whole club in pursuit of a trophy.

Well tbf I don't think that's the best analogy, but I get your point. I just don't see that either or your last two options are likely to happen (well obv the second will, but everyone in the league gets it too, and I expect it will largely find its way into players and agents pockets - so not net gain to us). If it were only a couple of years that we might have to wait I may even agree with you still, but I don't see a change at the top for many years. Therefore the only other option is a change at manager. Elementary!