Improvements?

[Dymak]

Dymak, we've regressed this season, but you can't say we did so as soon as Moyes left given Martinez got more points, at the first attempt, than Moyes ever did. Not only that, we won at Old Trafford for the first time in 20 odd years, and played attractive expansive footy at times.

Yes, Martinez has undone all that this season, but I'm willing to give him a bit longer on the basis of his first season.

My point is that it has taken the all singing and dancing Louis Van Gaal over 200 million pound to get Manchester United a massive three places above where that insufferable moron, Moyes, got them. Not only that, but it's Moyes' signings that have made the difference for United this year (Fellaini and Mata), and not the 200 million pounds worth of wank bought by Van Gaal.

The truth is that Moyes is a far superior football manager to Martinez, which is why the third biggest football club in the world poached him once he had honoured an eleven year long contract with Everton. An 11 years in which he totally transformed Everton, and left us with one or two decent players, not least a certain John Stones, who that scumbag Moyes had the cheek to sign for us just six months before he left!

I know Martinez is on Barcelona's shortlist after last seasons mega-achievements, but I think his honeymoon period is over, and that our transformation into Wigan will come ever closer during his stewardship. Tim Sherwood is currently having a honeymoon period as well, it won't last, even if he wins the cup, which I think they might do.

 

[blue_aussie05]

Moyes' first four full seasons were mixed, he finished 7th, 15th, 4th then 11th. I vividly recall thinking in his next season (06/07) we finished 6th, and wondered if this would be followed by another bottom half finish, as was his pattern at the time. But after this, he established us as a top 5-8 club, but it took him until his 5th and 6th season to get back to back top half finishes.

How do you know Martinez's first four seasons won't be a bit up and down before he finds a stable pattern of working, just like Moyes? The fact is, you don't. Nobody does. You could very well be right, and Martinez may end up being utter wank. Alternatively he may achieve similar outcomes to Moyes in league finishes, if given the opportunity to. I don't believe he's good enough to lead us into unparalleled success, but he may prove me wrong.

What is certain is that Martinez won't finish as low as Moyes did in his second full season (15th). Yet Moyes got another 8 seasons after this, all, may I add, without a trophy. Martinez has already got one of those.

Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future with any degree of certainty, but I think Martinez deserves the chance to see if he can turn things round, based on how things went last season.

 

[ftk43]

Moyes' first four full seasons were mixed, he finished 7th, 15th, 4th then 11th. I vividly recall thinking in his next season (06/07) we finished 6th, and wondered if this would be followed by another bottom half finish, as was his pattern at the time. But after this, he established us as a top 5-8 club, but it took him until his 5th and 6th season to get back to back top half finishes.

How do you know Martinez's first four seasons won't be a bit up and down before he finds a stable pattern of working, just like Moyes? The fact is, you don't. Nobody does. You could very well be right, and Martinez may end up being utter wank. Alternatively he may achieve similar outcomes to Moyes in league finishes, if given the opportunity to. I don't believe he's good enough to lead us into unparalleled success, but he may prove me wrong.

What is certain is that Martinez won't finish as low as Moyes did in his second full season (15th). Yet Moyes got another 8 seasons after this, all, may I add, without a trophy. Martinez has already got one of those.

Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future with any degree of certainty, but I think Martinez deserves the chance to see if he can turn things round, based on how things went last season.

I agree with your post, expect i don't care if Martinez won a trophy with Wigan, it has nothing to do with his work here, and if he won't improve things like his team selections, his interviews etc. sooner than later, i won't think about how he won the FA cup with Wigan some time ago

 

[blue_aussie05]

I'm merely pointing out that Martinez has won more than Moyes has in their respective careers.

 

[Dymak]

I'm merely pointing out that Martinez has won more than Moyes has in their respective careers.

So has Alex McCleish, but it in no way makes him a better manager than Moyes. Comparing Moyes' and Martinez' early years is very difficult, mainly because Moyes inherited utter dross, whereas it was all set up for Martinez. He's still managed to take us backwards though.

 

[Neiler]

I don't think people appreciate the rate of chang both personal, style of play, tactics and philosphey that has happened in the past two seasons, such a rate isn't without adjustment, but what we are trying to create is new, ambitious and away from just being mantra we have expirenceing for the past 15 years.

The team/squad bar the back four is unrecognisable.

 

[blue_aussie05]

Martinez's second season has taken us backwards, yes, just as Moyes' second season did.

Moyes' first full season was like a breath of fresh air which saw us finish 7th, after a series of dog fights at the wrong end of the table under Walter smith. We hadn't finished in the heady heights of around 7th for 7 years at that stage. But then we finished 15th the following year, with Moyes achieving what is still our lowest ever points tally to boot.

There are clear parallels with Martinez. His first season was also a breath of fresh air, and he achieved something which his predecessor hadn't (a record PL point tally). But his second season, just as moyes', has been an anticlimax after such promise and expectation.

However, that doesn't mean Martinez is crap and is taking us backwards, just as Moyes' second (and fourth) season blips didn't mean that either

 

[blue_aussie05]

I made an error before. I just looked and we actually finished 17th not 15th in Moyes' second full season with 39 points. That's a drop of 10 places and 20 points on the previous season.

This year, Martinez may drop 6 places at most and more than likely about 25 points. That's worrying, and completely unexpected.

However, he's still going to finish higher than 17th (we still have an outside chance of a top half finish), and will certainly finish with more than 39 points.

My point being, who knows what's round the corner? Who'd have said at the end of that season back in 2003/04, when we finished 17th, that Moyes would still be around 9 years later, after a string of top 5-8 league finishes? And what's to say Martinez won't go on to better things in the future with the club?

 

[toffeejack]

tough one. not sure i can answer tbh. what i can say though is that we look brilliantly set for the future as long as the players live up to their potential. we have that spine of stones, mccarthy, barkley and lukaku which is pretty devastating imo - they just haven't shone so brightly this season - but there's no doubting their talent.

i'm excited for the future, especially with our youth teams as well. i think we just need to put this season down as a tough learning curve with europe included and let's get back on it next season. the future always looked okay under moyes, but we all knew youngsters would come through very sporadically and not be entrusted like they will be by martinez - in that sense we can sort of lean towards yes. only just though after this season - it's raised a lot of questions.

 

[toffeejack]

Have to judge it on his signings really. Kone and Alcaraz - awful. Lukaku, McCarthy, Barry - great. Besic, McGeady, Robles - To be decided. Eto'o - was an honour to watch, but not the best move for the team.

Loans - Del, Lennon - good. Atsu, Traore - bad.

Plus he's made Stones and Barkley first team regulars and Garbutt has broke through as a decent understudy should be stay.

I'd say 2 good signings this summer without losing anybody and we have definitely improved the squad.

Our defending as a team has got worse, plus set pieces both attacking and defending them has worsened. We don't seem to have the mental strength that we did under Moyes either.

Next season will show exactly what we can offer.

pointless including him. i'll never base a manager's signings if the player gets injured straight away and never plays. i literally forgot we'd got traore until i read this - took a couple of seconds of thinking.

 

[Lowste]

This summer and next season up to october/november time will determine the future of the manager.
He has a lot of hard work ahead but his willingness eventually to change gives hope.
He has to ditch howard though and stop picking naismith from the start

Why October/November

 

[Fresh Prince of Belle Val]

pointless including him. i'll never base a manager's signings if the player gets injured straight away and never plays. i literally forgot we'd got traore until i read this - took a couple of seconds of thinking.

He's crap in a similar way to Jo.

 

[blue_aussie05]

Atsu, is he injured? It's been that long since I've seen him, I can't remember what's happened to him.

 

[sageyefc]

My point is that it has taken the all singing and dancing Louis Van Gaal over 200 million pound to get Manchester United a massive three places above where that insufferable moron, Moyes, got them. Not only that, but it's Moyes' signings that have made the difference for United this year (Fellaini and Mata), and not the 200 million pounds worth of wank bought by Van Gaal.

The truth is that Moyes is a far superior football manager to Martinez, which is why the third biggest football club in the world poached him once he had honoured an eleven year long contract with Everton. An 11 years in which he totally transformed Everton, and left us with one or two decent players, not least a certain John Stones, who that scumbag Moyes had the cheek to sign for us just six months before he left!

I know Martinez is on Barcelona's shortlist after last seasons mega-achievements, but I think his honeymoon period is over, and that our transformation into Wigan will come ever closer during his stewardship. Tim Sherwood is currently having a honeymoon period as well, it won't last, even if he wins the cup, which I think they might do.

Bad seat sniffer you lad.

Its actually De gea who got Utd where they are now.

He such a great manager that he took an absolute winning machine took them all the way down to seventh until he was laughed outve town by Utd and its fans.

He got found out big time, he has his level and its nowhere near the top.

 

[ETID88]

Atsu, is he injured? It's been that long since I've seen him, I can't remember what's happened to him.

I remember thinking at the time, it felt like an odd signing, I just don't feel he has the physical capabilities required to play in the EPL. I do think he has a future perhaps in Portugal/Spain.