Ferguson

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To some degree, I think this comes from an overreaction to the preceived threat from terroists. The need to feel prepared for the worst leading to a need to justify the equipment. I haven't done the research, but I'd guess you could trace the increasing aquisition of heavy equipment to 9/11
It started with the Drug War in the 80's. It definitely increased after 9/11 with the War on Terror.

Perceived threats have caused a great rift between the police and the citizenry. I include myself. I do not trust the police, even though as a white middle class male I really don't have anything to fear.

We need to turn the police force back into an organization designed to serve their communities and away from being an anti-drug/anti-terror army. Leave that stuff for non-local law enforcement.
 

Is the UK really that much better? I'm not even sure it's purely a race issue. It seems to me, at least in part, it's a case of the poor/disenfranchised/uneducated underclass being shepherded by gangs and criminals into kicking off. Once it starts it's then an easy bandwagon for mischief makers to jump on board. It was only a few summers ago we had "riots" here.

The middle 90% of society has to make a stand but realistically we're all too lazy or self-obsessed to do anything.
QUOTE]

Ends up being de facto racism when a larger proportion (compared to overall population) of the above bolded groups are black or latino
 
Sorry I didn't mean to deny racism completely. I just think the driving factor behind it isn't race.

Maybe not, but I'd say that's the perception. ....which for many would make it reality.
I do think it's "easier" to call it racism - black and white, literally. Racism is one thing so seemly easier to address than all that goes into poor/disenfranchised/uneducated underclass
 
Sorry I didn't mean to deny racism completely. I just think the driving factor behind it isn't race.
It becomes race. When the poor/disenfranchised/uneducated are generally members of certain minority groups, the majority begins to believe that all of the minority groups fit into your group.

In other words, you don't hate all whites because there are some that join gangs, because you know plenty of whites that are not. However, when you live in a fairly segregated place, like much of the US, it's quite possible that there isn't a large enough highly visible pool of that minority turning people away from the idea that race is the problem.

You end up with non-criminals becoming 'One of the good ones', rather than criminals being a 'bad one'.

This has become a serious negative feedback loop in the US, and much of it is driven by race, even if it wasn't initially driven by race. Many people see a young black man and immediately assume he is a gang member, regardless of any other factors.
 

It started with the Drug War in the 80's. It definitely increased after 9/11 with the War on Terror.

Perceived threats have caused a great rift between the police and the citizenry. I include myself. I do not trust the police, even though as a white middle class male I really don't have anything to fear.

We need to turn the police force back into an organization designed to serve their communities and away from being an anti-drug/anti-terror army. Leave that stuff for non-local law enforcement.

This would be really great in theory. People used to be reassured by the Bobby on the Beat, a bloke who the community knows and trusts. Leave the high end stuff to specialised units.
 
The difference this time is the heightened ability of an unexpected slice of America (which includes me) to feel threatened by the posture of the militarized peace officers.

For some time now, folks like Radley Balko have brought our attention to what happens when the SWAT guys screwup. They bust open the door of the wrong house based on dodgy info from some character who goes states evidence for a better deal, so the army shows up to look for your dope cause you're a dealer. Except that was the guy who lived there six months ago. The more libertarian side of the American public is making more clear its degree of discomfort with guys who shoot your dog, terrorize you, and never say that they're sorry when it comes out that it was all a big mistake. On a deeper level, you find that guys in suits are seeing the increasing possibilities that they can be a target of lawfare from individuals who have learned to manipulate the system from within or without for their own corrupt reasons, and they wait to see the evidence before making any case for the police. For the deeper level, this is a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

This is not settling as quickly into the expected kabuki dance this time. Stay tuned. The militarization question is going to outlive the concern that Michael Brown was back shot (not so much, we see), just an innocent kid (not so much, we see), but all of us will state that he shouldn't have six holes blasted into him unless he was actively trying to beat down the cop at the time. If he was actively trying to beat the cop down (remember this guy went 6-4 300 pounds) then I feel he brought on his own demise. Michael could have done many things in his position, and he chose very, very poorly. The video of the cigar caper in the store shows how Michael was doing business at the time of the encounter.

We also have the NY episode where we have video of the guy getting slammed and bound for nothing more than selling loose cigarettes and arguing over getting busted for it, and the dude died right there. In this world, there is video everywhere. Death sentence for loose cigarettes doesn't compute. This means that peace officers have to be more scrupulous than ever about how they do their jobs. Police have a history here of attempting to intimidate/threaten people out of videoing them doing their jobs, but the courts have ruled and departments are informing their people that you can't get away with that any more. God bless the bill of rights. Stay tuned on this one.
 
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Maybe not, but I'd say that's the perception. ....which for many would make it reality.
I do think it's "easier" to call it racism - black and white, literally. Racism is one thing so seemly easier to address than all that goes into poor/disenfranchised/uneducated underclass

I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing here. I'd like to see a proper effort dedicated to improving education, living conditions and prospects here or in the US. If we need to focus on the issue of racism to address the lack of real prospects then all well and good.

Sorry to make light of this situation but you only have to look. At the football industry in this country to see racism at work.
 

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Haven't read anything in this thread yet. I'm not qualified to speak for anyone other than myself, but as the only member on here living in St. Louis, and living exactly 9.5 miles from there, and having been there numerous times for business...maybe I have a perspective some might find interesting.

1) This area is as racially segregated as any city in America. Very few places where whites and black mix in any numbers. It's very tribal here. North is predominately black, south and west is predominately white. I grew up in Illinois (right across the Mississippi - think the Wirral to Liverpool) in a very mixed town so I was lucky none of this racial BS inefcted me. I grew up with white kids, black kids, asian kids you name it. It was normal for me. For most people from St. Louis (the Missouri side) that is not an experience they had. Most schools are either black or white because most neighborhoods are or the other. We have busing (from the desegregation laws of the 60's/70's) but you're talking small numbers of city black kids that go to suburban school.

2) Ferguson is a normal place. It's predominately black, but I can assure you it's not "the hood". I know what the hood looks like and Ferguson ain't it. Emerson Electric, one of the largest companies in the world is headquartered there. I've been there numerous times, had lunch, shopped...it's a working class suburb with some nice areas and some run down areas like a lot of places. It's not the crime capital of anywhere.

3) This is a world wide issue, but I'm not even sure I can explain what this is doing to people here. I've 100% purposefully swerved this on Facebook, because friendships are ending, fights are breaking out, and people's worst instincts are being revealed. All I can tell you is there are some people that I now view very differently based on their facebook posts. People I now consider to be unworthy of friendship. It's in moments like this when true character is revealed in my opinion.

4) Do I think Darren Wilson got up that morning itching to kill some black kid? No, of course not. But I will tell you this. In this country, every single person, black or white, is taught/conditioned to believe that young, black men are dangerous. If you worked a job like Darren Wilson, where you were conditioned to believe that young black men weren't human, they were potential threats to your life, you'd have a warped sense of reality. And that goes for cops everywhere. I've known plenty of cops in my life. This idea that they're all fair minded civic heroes is laughable. I don't know Darren Wilson, and to be honest I feel sorry for him. I think he lost his mind momentarily and now a kid is dead, and his life is potentially ruined. The defense of Darren Wilson has already started, but to me he's toast. He's going to jail. And I don't want to think about what will happen to him there.

5) The fact that Michael Brown was involved in a robbery (not armed) that morning is irrelevant. The punishment for suspected theft of cigars is not execution in the streets. If it is now, I'm getting the fuk out of here.

6) The militarization of our police forces is the most threatening thing of all. This is what war does. We've created a generation of wannabe heroes who want assault vehicles and swat gear, and then they want to use it.

7) The people looting are morons and criminals. They're hurting the focus on what happened here. But then morons and criminals only really care about themselves don't they? They don't have a social or political bone in their body.

8) Finally...there are so many white people in this town and country who are being very free with their conclusions and opinions. Here's the problem. Not one of them...and that includes me...knows what it's like to be black in this country...or worse, poor and black. They think racism ended in 1964...or when Obama got elected. "See America isn't racist!". Bullshit. Let me give you access to my facebook feed and tell me this country isn't divided by race.

It's a sad situation. No one wins here. Nothing is going to change. People's reactions to this have convinced me of that. Once [Poor language removed] started going down people chose sides and everything they've done since is to look for things that support their opinion. Very few people give a [Poor language removed] about what actually happened. It's depressing.

Everton dropping 2 points on Saturday didn't help either, bastards.
 
Haven't read anything in this thread yet. I'm not qualified to speak for anyone other than myself, but as the only member on here living in St. Louis, and living exactly 9.5 miles from there, and having been there numerous times for business...maybe I have a perspective some might find interesting.

1) This area is as racially segregated as any city in America. Very few places where whites and black mix in any numbers. It's very tribal here. North is predominately black, south and west is predominately white. I grew up in Illinois (right across the Mississippi - think the Wirral to Liverpool) in a very mixed town so I was lucky none of this racial BS inefcted me. I grew up with white kids, black kids, asian kids you name it. It was normal for me. For most people from St. Louis (the Missouri side) that is not an experience they had. Most schools are either black or white because most neighborhoods are or the other. We have busing (from the desegregation laws of the 60's/70's) but you're talking small numbers of city black kids that go to suburban school.

2) Ferguson is a normal place. It's predominately black, but I can assure you it's not "the hood". I know what the hood looks like and Ferguson ain't it. Emerson Electric, one of the largest companies in the world is headquartered there. I've been there numerous times, had lunch, shopped...it's a working class suburb with some nice areas and some run down areas like a lot of places. It's not the crime capital of anywhere.

3) This is a world wide issue, but I'm not even sure I can explain what this is doing to people here. I've 100% purposefully swerved this on Facebook, because friendships are ending, fights are breaking out, and people's worst instincts are being revealed. All I can tell you is there are some people that I now view very differently based on their facebook posts. People I now consider to be unworthy of friendship. It's in moments like this when true character is revealed in my opinion.

4) Do I think Darren Wilson got up that morning itching to kill some black kid? No, of course not. But I will tell you this. In this country, every single person, black or white, is taught/conditioned to believe that young, black men are dangerous. If you worked a job like Darren Wilson, where you were conditioned to believe that young black men weren't human, they were potential threats to your life, you'd have a warped sense of reality. And that goes for cops everywhere. I've known plenty of cops in my life. This idea that they're all fair minded civic heroes is laughable. I don't know Darren Wilson, and to be honest I feel sorry for him. I think he lost his mind momentarily and now a kid is dead, and his life is potentially ruined. The defense of Darren Wilson has already started, but to me he's toast. He's going to jail. And I don't want to think about what will happen to him there.

5) The fact that Michael Brown was involved in a robbery (not armed) that morning is irrelevant. The punishment for suspected theft of cigars is not execution in the streets. If it is now, I'm getting the fuk out of here.

6) The militarization of our police forces is the most threatening thing of all. This is what war does. We've created a generation of wannabe heroes who want assault vehicles and swat gear, and then they want to use it.

7) The people looting are morons and criminals. They're hurting the focus on what happened here. But then morons and criminals only really care about themselves don't they? They don't have a social or political bone in their body.

8) Finally...there are so many white people in this town and country who are being very free with their conclusions and opinions. Here's the problem. Not one of them...and that includes me...knows what it's like to be black in this country...or worse, poor and black. They think racism ended in 1964...or when Obama got elected. "See America isn't racist!". Bullshit. Let me give you access to my facebook feed and tell me this country isn't divided by race.

It's a sad situation. No one wins here. Nothing is going to change. People's reactions to this have convinced me of that. Once [Poor language removed] started going down people chose sides and everything they've done since is to look for things that support their opinion. Very few people give a [Poor language removed] about what actually happened. It's depressing.

Everton dropping 2 points on Saturday didn't help either, bastards.

Ain't that the truth. Great post, dawg. I've touched on a lot of this already.

Plus, St. Louis didn't burn like a lot of cities did in the sixties - lots of pentup energy getting released here. There were horrific race riots where whites mowed blacks down back in the prewar era (this is why Miles Davis felt the way he did about us crackers) and East St. Louis has long been famous for being where things have bottomed out and just stayed - kind of a little Detroit. A lot of the folks on the streets in Ferguson aren't from Ferguson, I bet. Sorry to see all the pain happening. One more thing - St. Louis is a place where most folks are from St. Louis. It's not like Atlanta or Dallas or here where most everybody is from somewhere else, and that point makes this different.
 

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