Ferguson

DanEFC92 · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
If the facts bear out that Michael Brown did what he did (charged an officer with intent to do harm after being told to freeze) then Officer Wilson isn't going to jail. He has every right to defend himself.

Furthermore, how are Michael Brown's actions in the robbery not relevant? For me, they're completely relevant. I'm quite confident that I can say that Michael Brown was not shot because he stole cigars. He was shot because he made an incredibly poor decision (assaulting a peace officer) and paid for it with his life.

So, how is it relevant?

Also, the police chief said that Darren Wilson wasn't aware that Brown was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting.

TX Bill · August 20, 2014

DanEFC92 said:
So, how is it relevant?

Also, the police chief said that Darren Wilson wasn't aware that Brown was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting.

I don't mean to be stubborn here but I can't imagine in any case how it's not and that would even be in question.

1) The man just committed a crime (points to his character, state of mind, etc...)
2) Wilson didn't "initially" know he was a suspect until he heard about the robbery and saw the suspect carrying the stolen cigars:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...souri-police-michael-brown-shooting/14098369/

Springhettios · August 20, 2014

DanEFC92 said:
So, how is it relevant?

Also, the police chief said that Darren Wilson wasn't aware that Brown was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting.

Completely relavent. He obviously is aggressive and you see in the video from the store. Also, a friend of the officer heard his side of the incident and she stated he said he was made aware of the robbery. He was also given a description of the suspects and that is why he told them to stop.

Springhettios · August 20, 2014

Also, there is reports of one side of the police officer's face being swollen and an issue with his eye.

TX Bill · August 20, 2014

One area that America has gone down the proverbial &%*#hole is in regards to personal responsibility.

No one these days takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It's always, always the fault of someone else, and if I work it right, I can get paid for it if I can get a court of law or jury to agree with me that it's the fault of someone else. There are SOME lawyers who make a good living out of this.

It should amaze me, but it doesn't, that if witness reports are true, and Michael Brown charged Officer Wilson, potentially putting the officer's life at risk, that people actually believe that Michael Brown bears NO responsibility for his actions, and ultimately, his own death.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

Springhettios · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
One area that America has gone down the proverbial &%*#hole is in regards to personal responsibility.

No one these days takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It's always, always the fault of someone else, and if I work it right, I can get paid for it if I can get a court of law or jury to agree with me that it's the fault of someone else. There are SOME lawyers who make a good living out of this.

It should amaze me, but it doesn't, that if witness reports are true, and Michael Brown charged Officer Wilson, potentially putting the officer's life at risk, that people actually believe that Michael Brown bears NO responsibility for his actions, and ultimately, his own death.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

Exactly! I'm sorry this kid died but if it turns out he did attack him, then every fault falls on himself. So many things can be avoided by just complying with police. And if the officer did wrongly kill him then he will be prosecuted.

TX Bill · August 20, 2014

Scanning the news wire, I saw this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/liberal-activists-set-voter-registration-booth-mic/

There are no words.

DanEFC92 · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
I don't mean to be stubborn here but I can't imagine in any case how it's not and that would even be in question.

1) The man just committed a crime (points to his character, state of mind, etc...)
2) Wilson didn't "initially" know he was a suspect until he heard about the robbery and saw the suspect carrying the stolen cigars:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...souri-police-michael-brown-shooting/14098369/

Springhettios said:
Completely relavent. He obviously is aggressive and you see in the video from the store. Also, a friend of the officer heard his side of the incident and she stated he said he was made aware of the robbery. He was also given a description of the suspects and that is why he told them to stop.

It does prove that he stole something. But has no relevance towards the encounter hours later.

There's a contradiction in reports; first they said it was because they were walking in the middle of the street, then later on, after the robbery video was released, they tried to link the two and mentioned the cigars.

And no, when he was stopped, according to Chief Jackson, he was not aware that he was a robbery suspect.

TX Bill · August 20, 2014

DanEFC92 said:
It does prove that he stole something. But has no relevance towards the encounter hours later.

There's a contradiction in reports; first they said it was because they were walking in the middle of the street, then later on, after the robbery video was released, they tried to link the two and mentioned the cigars.

And no, when he was stopped, according to Chief Jackson, he was not aware that he was a robbery suspect.

...until he became aware that a robbery had taken place. He INITIALLY told the guy to walk on the sidewalk.

THEN, he heard about the robbery and noticed the cigars and went back to him.

There is no contradiction.

Read the article (or read it again.)

dannyboy · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
One area that America has gone down the proverbial &%*#hole is in regards to personal responsibility.

No one these days takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It's always, always the fault of someone else, and if I work it right, I can get paid for it if I can get a court of law or jury to agree with me that it's the fault of someone else. There are SOME lawyers who make a good living out of this.

It should amaze me, but it doesn't, that if witness reports are true, and Michael Brown charged Officer Wilson, potentially putting the officer's life at risk, that people actually believe that Michael Brown bears NO responsibility for his actions, and ultimately, his own death.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

IF he has charged an armed officer then of course he's put himself into a perilous situation.

However, just from looking at the statistics for people killed by the police in America over the past decade really did startle me. The number seems ridiculously high and questions should be asked whether proportionate action is being taken by officers.

TX Bill · August 20, 2014

dannyboy said:
IF he has charged an armed officer then of course he's put himself into a perilous situation.

However, just from looking at the statistics for people killed by the police in America over the past decade really did startle me. The number seems ridiculously high and questions should be asked whether proportionate action is being taken by officers.

Agreed.

I think, and this is just my opinion, is that over the years, there's been a declining lack of respect for peace officers, law enforcement, and authority in general. You could also say that there's been a declining lack of respect for the community from peace officers in more generalized terms. This puts people in a situation that years ago, would have been unheard of. Years ago, when a police officer told you to stop, you would stop. You didn't have an attitude towards the police like you see today.

Today for many in the community, they tell you to stop and you give them middle finger or worse. For some in law enforcement, it's an "us against them" attitude. Well that doesn't square with the "To Protect and To Serve" mandate.

But where and when did this start? Was it the community becoming more and more brazen when it came to local law enforcement that caused law enforcement to have to defend itself more or was it law enforcement becoming more onerous on the local community and they finally got tired of their actions and attitudes.

As a child and growing up, I was taught to respect authority. Parents, teachers, anyone in authority over me, I was taught to respect and to obey. I was taught that there were consequences for disobedience and breaking the law. Today, I don't think that's being taught near enough which is part of the problem. I can't claim to understand why but I'm sure that are reasons for it. I think that there's an overall breakdown in society when authority isn't respected. There is also going to be an overall breakdown in society when authority doesn't respect the local community. This in my mind leads to situations like the one being faced in Ferguson today.

The question is, how do you rectify this situation?

dannyboy · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
Agreed.

I think, and this is just my opinion, is that over the years, there's been a declining lack of respect for peace officers, law enforcement, and authority in general. You could also say that there's been a declining lack of respect for the community from peace officers in more generalized terms. This puts people in a situation that years ago, would have been unheard of. Years ago, when a police officer told you to stop, you would stop. You didn't have an attitude towards the police like you see today.

Today for many in the community, they tell you to stop and you give them middle finger or worse. For some in law enforcement, it's an "us against them" attitude. Well that doesn't square with the "To Protect and To Serve" mandate.

But where and when did this start? Was it the community becoming more and more brazen when it came to local law enforcement that caused law enforcement to have to defend itself more or was it law enforcement becoming more onerous on the local community and they finally got tired of their actions and attitudes.

As a child and growing up, I was taught to respect authority. Parents, teachers, anyone in authority over me, I was taught to respect and to obey. I was taught that there were consequences for disobedience and breaking the law. Today, I don't think that's being taught near enough which is part of the problem. I can't claim to understand why but I'm sure that are reasons for it. I think that there's an overall breakdown in society when authority isn't respected. There is also going to be an overall breakdown in society when authority doesn't respect the local community. This in my mind leads to situations like the one being faced in Ferguson today.

The question is, how do you rectify this situation?

It's a question that doesn't have a simple answer that's for sure. I don't think you can command someone to obey and respect authority, especially in communities where there is very much an element of 'us' and 'them'.

These people are being lost in the current system, it's difficult to not draw comparisons with what happened in London 2011. They feel ostracised from the established order and therefore have no qualms over looting or indeed confronting police officers who they very much see as the enemy. It's perhaps a platitude but more needs to be done to reach out to the people in these communities so they can make a positive impact upon society, because right now I'll bet they feel so far removed from the current system that things like obtaining a good education seem irrelevant to them.

With regards to the police force they've got to take responsibility and improve relations with people in the local areas. Easier said than done of course... But the police should be there to reassure all members of the community, no doubt for many young black Americans their sentiments towards the police are in line with that of young black lads over in Britain. They feel unfairly targeted, almost victimised by a police force that it's difficult not to accuse of institutionalised racism, until that's addressed little progress can be made.

Elong · August 20, 2014

TX Bill said:
The same why that the "black man" was shot by the "white peace officer?"

People only want to use context when it serves/suits their purposes. Our media is notorious for doing this.

Remember that.

Yes Bill, it works both ways. It's an insult both ways, but only so far. One race wasn't submitted to years of torture and slavery. But I don't wanna go down that path with a gun toting Texan