F1 2021

[evilwebby]

Not for me, hopefully he improves but he didn't beat Sainz and he is below Ricciardo's class.

He does for me. Fact is that Ricciardo is not quite seen to be in Hamilton/Verstappen's class, so to be losing to a tier-2 driver puts you firmly in the midfield - either a #2 at a big team, or a #1 at a smaller team. Neither is going to win you a championship.

You are right that he didn't beat Sainz, which is why I he needs to show continual improvement and take another big step up.

Getting beaten by your team mate for your first 3 years in F1 does not scream "tier-1 driver".

 

[The binman chronicles]

He does for me. Fact is that Ricciardo is not quite seen to be in Hamilton/Verstappen's class, so to be losing to a tier-2 driver puts you firmly in the midfield - either a #2 at a big team, or a #1 at a smaller team. Neither is going to win you a championship.

You are right that he didn't beat Sainz, which is why I he needs to show continual improvement and take another big step up.

Getting beaten by your team mate for your first 3 years in F1 does not scream "tier-1 driver".

I think you are being a bit unfair to Norris there by putting Danny Ric in tier 2. He was doing better than Verstappen until his Red Bull started to be put together with rubber bands and scotch tape as there was no room for two alphas. It would have been interesting him and Alonso in the same team. I think he will have the measure of Norris but that won't be terminal to Lando's career.

 

[PhilM]

A legend for me on who was par with some of the top drivers for what he contributed to the sport.

Murray Walker: Formula 1 broadcasting legend dies at 97

Former Formula 1 commentator Murray Walker dies at the age of 97.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[longers]

I think you are being a bit unfair to Norris there by putting Danny Ric in tier 2. He was doing better than Verstappen until his Red Bull started to be put together with rubber bands and scotch tape as there was no room for two alphas. It would have been interesting him and Alonso in the same team. I think he will have the measure of Norris but that won't be terminal to Lando's career.

I think Danny Ric is very much a tier 2 driver whose been a bit overrated since day one tbh. He was firmly in Verstappens back pocket by the end of his time in Red Bull, he knew he had nothing for him and it was only gonna get worse for him from that point onwards hence why he joined Renault (why else would you leave a race winning team for a midfield team). The huge differences between their speed/performance in the rain at Brazil 2018 confirmed that Verstappen is a level above him.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I think Danny Ric is very much a tier 2 driver whose been a bit overrated since day one tbh. He was firmly in Verstappens back pocket by the end of his time in Red Bull, he knew he had nothing for him and it was only gonna get worse for him from that point onwards hence why he joined Renault (why else would you leave a race winning team for a midfield team). The huge differences between their speed/performance in the rain at Brazil 2018 confirmed that Verstappen is a level above him.

hmm, which one took pole in Mexico and was ahead before his car gave up? That was at the end of that season. Who was closing in on whom in Azerbaijan before Verstappen tried to turn his car into a bollard? He went because Max was the golden boy and he knew he wasn't going to get a fair rub of the green at Red Bull.

Don't get me wrong Max is marginally the better driver but there is not a huge gulf there to say he is in tier two. Same machinery with no mechanical issues and he will be hot on the tails of Max, Lewis and Fernando. Perhaps all of them are better in wet conditions like you alluded to in Brazil but that doesn't immediately relegate you to being not great and I think Danny has won a couple of wet races too. Sometimes you need the right car to match driving styles to show off those kind of abilities, perhaps the 2018 RB wasn't that for him?

I think you are also being a bit disingenuous about the switch to Renault, it wasn't I need to get out of their and I don't care who to! Red Bull were about to end up with Honda who had what 3 seasons with McLaren with no joy? It was a calculated move to go to a works team and be the no.1 driver. Completely understandable the rationale behind it.

Anyhow we'll see how he matches up against Norris and then if the McLaren is on par with Red Bull/Merc how he copes against them even if it is only competitive at a few GP's.

 

[longers]

hmm, which one took pole in Mexico and was ahead before his car gave up? That was at the end of that season.

He was behind Verstappen for the entirety of that race apart from when they gridded up

Who was closing in on whom in Azerbaijan before Verstappen tried to turn his car into a bollard?

One race at the start of the season and tbh Ricciardo deserved a little bit of the blame for that, the amount of wreckless dive bombing he does it was always going to go tits up eventually especially when you try it against a driver who drives people even harder than yourself.

He went because Max was the golden boy and he knew he wasn't going to get a fair rub of the green at Red Bull.

Thats his excuse, id say its more likely that by the end of 2018 he simply knew wasn't on Max's level and when you combine that with Max being the golden boy it's pretty clear he was always going to play second fiddle. Ask yourself why is Max the golden boy ? Why not Danny Ric ? He'd been there longer. The answer is because Red Bull know Max is the generational talent.

Don't get me wrong Max is marginally the better driver but there is not a huge gulf there to say he is in tier two. Same machinery with no mechanical issues and he will be hot on the tails of Max, Lewis and Fernando.

Id say he is comfortably better than Danny Ric tbh but it's all opinions.

Perhaps all of them are better in wet conditions like you alluded to in Brazil but that doesn't immediately relegate you to being not great and I think Danny has won a couple of wet races too. Sometimes you need the right car to match driving styles to show off those kind of abilities, perhaps the 2018 RB wasn't that for him?

I don't think it makes you a bad driver but to be out performed that badly in the rain but it suggests you're perhaps not 'great' in the same way the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen are. It's not like all my assumptions on him are based on that wet race either, I've been saying he's a bit overrated for years now. Take away his likeable personality and his love of entertaining yet wreckless dive bombs and he wouldn't be rated so highly imo.

I think you are also being a bit disingenuous about the switch to Renault, it wasn't I need to get out of their and I don't care who to! Red Bull were about to end up with Honda who had what 3 seasons with McLaren with no joy? It was a calculated move to go to a works team and be the no.1 driver. Completely understandable the rationale behind it.

He left a team competing for wins for a team who were never going to compete for wins in this era of F1 and then left said team before the new regs in 2022 could even come into play. I fail to see any rationale behind it besides money and being fed up with playing second fiddle to a superior talent.

He's a good race winning driver and an entertaining one at that, but he's firmly in the tier 2 category imo.

 

[The binman chronicles]

He was behind Verstappen for the entirety of that race apart from when they gridded up



One race at the start of the season and tbh Ricciardo deserved a little bit of the blame for that, the amount of wreckless dive bombing he does it was always going to go tits up eventually especially when you try it against a driver who drives people even harder than yourself.



Thats his excuse, id say its more likely that by the end of 2018 he simply knew wasn't on Max's level and when you combine that with Max being the golden boy it's pretty clear he was always going to play second fiddle. Ask yourself why is Max the golden boy ? Why not Danny Ric ? He'd been there longer. The answer is because Red Bull know Max is the generational talent.



Id say he is comfortably better than Danny Ric tbh but it's all opinions.



I don't think it makes you a bad driver but to be out performed that badly in the rain but it suggests you're perhaps not 'great' in the same way the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen are. It's not like all my assumptions on him are based on that wet race either, I've been saying he's a bit overrated for years now. Take away his likeable personality and his love of entertaining yet wreckless dive bombs and he wouldn't be rated so highly imo.



He left a team competing for wins for a team who were never going to compete for wins in this era of F1 and then left said team before the new regs in 2022 could even come into play. I fail to see any rationale behind it besides money and being fed up with playing second fiddle to a superior talent.

He's a good race winning driver and an entertaining one at that, but he's firmly in the tier 2 category imo.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this otherwise it will be a perpetual round of replies it would seem. Let's revist at the end of this season.

 

[messymascot]

I'm going to predict Mercedes and Hamilton will be Champions but I think Verstappen will be the main challenger in the drivers Championship not Bottas. I think it will be a lot closer than previous years and might even still be on into the last 2 races. If Perez is competitive it will give Red Bull a more even chance tactically. After that there will be 4 teams battling for 3rd McLaren will edge it I think, Ferrari, Aston Martin and Alpine will be the competition. It could be down to drivers motivation as we have 2 World champions who will be trying to prove they are good enough with 2 reasonable team mates. McLaren and Ferrari probably have slightly better overall drivers but we'll see what happens. I can see Alpha Tauri being 7th and the the other 3 scrapping for 8th-10th.

 

[Tubey]

That Merc is looking genuinely ropey.

 

[Tubey]

Yeah unlike recent years, Mercedes were not 'sandbagging' in testing - watched a fair bit of it over last few days, and that car looks like it's skating on ice.

It could be an interest year.

 

[evilwebby]

I think you are being a bit unfair to Norris there by putting Danny Ric in tier 2. He was doing better than Verstappen until his Red Bull started to be put together with rubber bands and scotch tape as there was no room for two alphas. It would have been interesting him and Alonso in the same team. I think he will have the measure of Norris but that won't be terminal to Lando's career.

I think that it's quite clear from their time as team-mates that Ricciardo ultimately has a lower ceiling than Verstappen, even if he could sometimes get the upper hand over a race weekend... and Verstappen has since matured and is a much better driver today than he was even when he was beating Ricciardo. It's no disgrace to be in tier-2; that still put you in the top 5 or 6 best drivers on the grid

For me,
tier 1 is Ham, Ver, Alo
tier 2 is Lec, Ric, Per, & maybe Rus

 

[evilwebby]

I don’t think Mercedes are sandbagging that much.. I really do think that they are struggling to understand and get the best out of their car and have a lot of work to do to get in shape for the first race.

Red Bull are looking very strong on the evidence we have seen, and Verstappen could well have a package that will allow him to mount a serious title challenge.

 

[messymascot]

I think that it's quite clear from their time as team-mates that Ricciardo ultimately has a lower ceiling than Verstappen, even if he could sometimes get the upper hand over a race weekend... and Verstappen has since matured and is a much better driver today than he was even when he was beating Ricciardo. It's no disgrace to be in tier-2; that still put you in the top 5 or 6 best drivers on the grid

For me,
tier 1 is Ham, Ver, Alo
tier 2 is Lec, Ric, Per, & maybe Rus

I think you are right but Ricciardo is very close. Remember he beat Vettel in his first season at Red Bull season. However he struggled against Kyvatt in there full season together.

 

[evilwebby]

I think you are right but Ricciardo is very close. Remember he beat Vettel in his first season at Red Bull season. However he struggled against Kyvatt in there full season together.

The curious case of Sebastian Vettel and how to rate him is really worth discussing..

For my money, it's clear based on what we've seen through his entire career that while he can be very, very good when everything is right, he is clearly not tier 1 material, 4 championships notwithstanding. Tier 1s are sublime talents that can drive anything and pretty much get the most out of it. They are not only extraordinarily fast, but supremely adaptable. Seb clearly lacks the latter quality, and is no better than average when the car's rear end isn't planted.

I think at best, he can be considered tier 2, but we haven't seen him at anything like his best for a few seasons now. Turning up and driving the wheels off of whatever machinery you've got is a quality that tier 1s all have. Seb doesn't have it, unfortunately.


Ricciardo is a damn good driver and fully capable of winning a championship given the right time & place.. but he doesn't deliver the level of performance that Hamilton/Verstappen and Alonso do. That is the thing with tier 2s and below - they will always be the 3rd or 4th most wanted drivers on the grid, and in a sport where usually only 2 or 3 drivers have a realistic shot at winning the championship most years, that means the #1 seats at the big teams are filled by the tier 1s, and everyone below that has to pray that their package somehow springs a surprise.

As the sport is today, you need to be the #1 driver at either Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari to win a championship.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I think that it's quite clear from their time as team-mates that Ricciardo ultimately has a lower ceiling than Verstappen, even if he could sometimes get the upper hand over a race weekend... and Verstappen has since matured and is a much better driver today than he was even when he was beating Ricciardo. It's no disgrace to be in tier-2; that still put you in the top 5 or 6 best drivers on the grid

For me,
tier 1 is Ham, Ver, Alo
tier 2 is Lec, Ric, Per, & maybe Rus

We all know Verstappen is a freak of a nature and of course has a higher celling as he started out earlier and with a higher level of machinery. I still take umbrage of Max beating Danny during their season together though, the early part belonged to Ricciardo and from mid point there wasn't a race where his car ran ok. Even when he finished the race it had a gremlin or two during it. Look how many DNF's he had compared to Max after half way and he didn't finish that far behind him.

Like I say let's see how he gets on at McLaren to see if any of us shift our views this season. You are right in the fact Max is a far more rounded driver since then though.