Match Thread Everton v Liverpool - Preview, Match Report and MotM Poll

[Barnfred 55]

I think theres something deeper going on here. Theyve not been the same since Watford for me. Confidence has been lost. 3 against Madrid. 5 at City, 3 against Leeds, 3 against Chelsea and now 7 against Villa. This is all in about 15 games.

In fairness a lot of those games were after Liverpool had already won the league. Their commitment was not going to be the same and, without checking, I suspect they would also have picked weakened teams in some of those games.

They will be looking at that Villa game with mixed feelings I suspect. Three of the goal were wicked deflections and the first was poor keeper error. But their high line was ruthlessly exposed numerous times and that's because their pressing game was off.

I don't know how Klopp is going to react. He'll want a quick reaction to that performance and result so I don't believe he'll go into the game with the same set up. He'll either play a similar team but be more cautious in allowing us space in behind. Or he'll bring back the likes of Henderson and Milner to ensure that the press works properly and keep the high line.

I hope he goes the latter as I think we have the players now to expose the high line despite an effective press. If he goes more cautious I can see a scoreless draw.

 

[catcherintherye]

Strange isn’t it how Klopp’s teams go from nowhere to unbelievable form and then have a huge regression as seen at Dortmund. I’ve never seen a title winning team go from almost being invincible, barely conceding goals to getting hit for 7 by a team in a relegation battle last season. Very very odd.

To a point. I mean Mourinho's teams tended to fall away and so did Leicester. To a degree City have as well under Pep.

Klopp has a very specific way of playing. I'm not sure he's a massively nuanced coach, he is very much (as he himself has said) plan b is to do plan A better. Eventually though teams start to work you out and find ways around it. There is a bit a process for this to occur, firstly a side has to identify the weakness, then put it into practice, then more sides need to have some success and quite quickly it's at every video analysts data collection to be shared quite quickly.

I noticed the other day while Carragher was bleating on about "best in the world at pressing" Arsenal were actively trying to encourage the press. But for some sloppiness at times they could have been "in" 4/5/6 times.

It's important to say, its not just Klopp who has suffered this fate. Pep did so at City last year too. We had the same guff about him re-inventing football and making an unbeatable team. Eventually sides get used to you. It was at a similar point last season- after a good start they started coming un stuck. For Villa this season, to a degree see Norwich last season for City. Once the douhbts of your own players set in, and the opponents start to believe there is a path to victory, it becomes a different game.

I'm not sure Pep or Klopp really have a plan B. Both of them have made their name on building one plan. I'm not wholly convined either will be here in the long term. The PL is a hard league, and quite brutal to resolve once you are sussed out,

I think of Alex Ferguson, when they lost 5-0 and 6-3 to Southampton and he amended the shape to win the league. Or he did siilar after the 6-1 mauling, but he completely changed how they played, and made a focus of not conceding many goals. I mean maybe Klopp completely disregards the high line, the high press etc, but I have my doubts.

So in one sense it's odd. But in another way, it's veruy typical. He has a unique, high risk, bespoke approach to playing. It's all or nothing. They've had the all, and increasingly it looks like games will end up with nothing, so I can't say I am massively surprised.

 

[Brisan123]

They think it’s the perfect game to bounce back from. There’s no other game they want to put the villa game behind them. A win would be suuuich a statement. Absolutely rattle them maybe beyond recovery. And will send us flying.

Losing 2 on the bounce in the league would certainly pour water on the seeds of doubt that are invariably lurking under the surface

 

[Hickson9]

It's an obvious and perhaps trite to say but of all our games I wish we had fans at this one.
Top of the league, playing great , one of the World's best players at the top of his game , Richarlison and DCL constant threats and the RS coming off an humiliating defeat.... Goodison would be rocking just like when we smashed Bayern Munich.
But sadly it's not to be.
However if we win it will send shockwaves through the league. We would be seen as serious challengers and massive question Mark's would be raised against them.
It is hard to overstate the importance of this game.

I think if we win we would be seen as serious challengers for a European place, but that is all.

To be seen as anything more serious, we will have to be right up there around New Year.

 

[Brisan123]

In fairness a lot of those games were after Liverpool had already won the league. Their commitment was not going to be the same and, without checking, I suspect they would also have picked weakened teams in some of those games.

They will be looking at that Villa game with mixed feelings I suspect. Three of the goal were wicked deflections and the first was poor keeper error. But their high line was ruthlessly exposed numerous times and that's because their pressing game was off.

I don't know how Klopp is going to react. He'll want a quick reaction to that performance and result so I don't believe he'll go into the game with the same set up. He'll either play a similar team but be more cautious in allowing us space in behind. Or he'll bring back the likes of Henderson and Milner to ensure that the press works properly and keep the high line.

I hope he goes the latter as I think we have the players now to expose the high line despite an effective press. If he goes more cautious I can see a scoreless draw.

Problem is with the international break he can work on all the whiteboards he wants but he will have no time to put it across to the players
I doubt we have the last of the Covid cases
Seemingly PEDs and inhalers are no defence against Covid 19

 

[Death]

Losing 2 on the bounce in the league would certainly pour water on the seeds of doubt that are invariably lurking under the surface

7-2 then losing the first derby in a decade. We would blow the league wide open and I completely understanding people claiming I’m getting ahead of myself but champions league would be on. The number of gick teams outside the top two that have been on with a chance of it over the years.

 

[Brisan123]

To a point. I mean Mourinho's teams tended to fall away and so did Leicester. To a degree City have as well under Pep.

Klopp has a very specific way of playing. I'm not sure he's a massively nuanced coach, he is very much (as he himself has said) plan b is to do plan A better. Eventually though teams start to work you out and find ways around it. There is a bit a process for this to occur, firstly a side has to identify the weakness, then put it into practice, then more sides need to have some success and quite quickly it's at every video analysts data collection to be shared quite quickly.

I noticed the other day while Carragher was bleating on about "best in the world at pressing" Arsenal were actively trying to encourage the press. But for some sloppiness at times they could have been "in" 4/5/6 times.

It's important to say, its not just Klopp who has suffered this fate. Pep did so at City last year too. We had the same guff about him re-inventing football and making an unbeatable team. Eventually sides get used to you. It was at a similar point last season- after a good start they started coming un stuck. For Villa this season, to a degree see Norwich last season for City. Once the douhbts of your own players set in, and the opponents start to believe there is a path to victory, it becomes a different game.

I'm not sure Pep or Klopp really have a plan B. Both of them have made their name on building one plan. I'm not wholly convined either will be here in the long term. The PL is a hard league, and quite brutal to resolve once you are sussed out,

I think of Alex Ferguson, when they lost 5-0 and 6-3 to Southampton and he amended the shape to win the league. Or he did siilar after the 6-1 mauling, but he completely changed how they played, and made a focus of not conceding many goals. I mean maybe Klopp completely disregards the high line, the high press etc, but I have my doubts.

So in one sense it's odd. But in another way, it's veruy typical. He has a unique, high risk, bespoke approach to playing. It's all or nothing. They've had the all, and increasingly it looks like games will end up with nothing, so I can't say I am massively surprised.

The Dortmund experience all over again

 

[catcherintherye]

In fairness a lot of those games were after Liverpool had already won the league. Their commitment was not going to be the same and, without checking, I suspect they would also have picked weakened teams in some of those games.

They will be looking at that Villa game with mixed feelings I suspect. Three of the goal were wicked deflections and the first was poor keeper error. But their high line was ruthlessly exposed numerous times and that's because their pressing game was off.

I don't know how Klopp is going to react. He'll want a quick reaction to that performance and result so I don't believe he'll go into the game with the same set up. He'll either play a similar team but be more cautious in allowing us space in behind. Or he'll bring back the likes of Henderson and Milner to ensure that the press works properly and keep the high line.

I hope he goes the latter as I think we have the players now to expose the high line despite an effective press. If he goes more cautious I can see a scoreless draw.

Well they played their best team throughout (which I found odd). I can understand the foot came off the gas though. However Chelsea, Madrid and Watford were all before lockdown and before they won the league. Then you look at the defeats to Arsenal twice so far this season, or Leeds scoring 3 on the opening day etc and it can't all be put down to taking their eye off the abll in lockdown. In fact the only game that fits that criteria is the City game, and in honesty of all the games in question, that one woud have been the one they least wanted to get hammered in.

I mean another point might be, once players step off the treadmill a bit, is it easy to just slip back into the same pace as before? I'd suggest it is pretty difficult.

There was some luck for Villa though I am inclined to agree with Klopp, it is bad defending as much asbad luck. It is defending that is not committed enough, and a team allowing too many shots on goal, and too many attacks. They were unlucky against Villa in that regard, but have been lucky in other games. It's worth adding as well, I watched the last 20 minutes or so, and Villa missed 2 clear 1 on 1's and an open goal. They then seemed to just give up trying to score. I don't think 7 really flattered Villa who could have had more.

Milner and Henderson help, particularly Henderson. Milner must be nearly 35 though and I'm really not convinced he's going to have the legs to resolve this problem. As a starting point they need to get Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum playing together in midfield. That ought to be the priority. Forget Thiago, that is their best midfield 3, particularly in terms of providing protection.

As a final aside, I dont think this means they stop winning games. City got 81 points last season having also been "found out" a bit. Liverpool could easily win the leagye being more inconsistent, and to my mind remain favourites to do so. However the all conquering manner in which they did it has gone. If they persist with the high line, they are going to be involved in a number if games that become something of a lottery.

 

[catcherintherye]

The Dortmund experience all over again

Yes to a point.

I mean he has more protection than at Dortmund. I suspect his wage bill will be close to twice as high. Say what you want at Dortmund, but he took a side with a budget about where Everton's is, and overtook Bayern. In Germany though there is only really 1 team of that nature to overtake, whereas in this country it is 5-6. However when he fell, he fell from a much lower point. There will be some insulation at Liverpool. He couldn't afford players like Van Dijk, Becker, Salah, Thiago etc at Liverpool.

I think it may look more like what has happened to City, and have stated a fewtimes I think City are Liverpool but a year in front. While I'd love to be proven wrong, I don't foresee him having them in the bottom 3 at Christmas any time soon.

 

[catcherintherye]

I think if we win we would be seen as serious challengers for a European place, but that is all.

To be seen as anything more serious, we will have to be right up there around New Year.

If we beat Liverpool mate, I think we can consider ourselves title challengers. Not favourites, but very much in the hunt.

 

[catcherintherye]

Problem is with the international break he can work on all the whiteboards he wants but he will have no time to put it across to the players
I doubt we have the last of the Covid cases
Seemingly PEDs and inhalers are no defence against Covid 19

Yes I mean there's not a lot he can do in that time. They have more player way than we do, and a number of their players will still be unable to do any real training. It's a bit of a killer result to go away on that, and Im sure he'd have wanted a week on the training ground with them to work on shape etc. To me Gomez and Arnold didn't look like they knew how to defend, but in a lot of ways it's probably the first time in their careers they were being asked to defend for any serious amount of time. They looked completely baffled by the prospect.

 

[Hickson9]

If we beat Liverpool mate, I think we can consider ourselves title challengers. Not favourites, but very much in the hunt.

Beat Liverpool and we are on 15 points from 5 matches.

Even if we assume the points total required for the title is significantly reduced, let's say to 85, we would still need 70 points from 33 matches in that scenario.

Another 21 wins, 7 draws, 5 losses. That would be a ridiculous season. Bear in mind our greatest total in the Premier League era is 72 points from 38 matches under Martinez and we were brilliant that season (including a 7 match winning streak).

If we have the Champions League total at 70 points however, we would need 55 points from 33 matches.

15 wins, 10 draws, 8 losses. It would seem much more realistic to draw a conclusion that that is achievable, from what would still be a small though very promising sample size.

Thankfully we have the luxury of playing one match a week through to mid December, which gives us a better opportunity to ride out this initial wave as long as possible.

 

[Deleted member 48881]

Nice thing is, after Villa their 'reaction' with be a comprehensive defeat from a very stylish performance from Everton. Press will see us as contenders and they will be devastated, crying for Shanks and the usual victim drivel.

exactly mate

 

[DanEFC92]

Hurt them. Please.

 

[catcherintherye]

Beat Liverpool and we are on 15 points from 5 matches.

Even if we assume the points total required for the title is significantly reduced, let's say to 85, we would still need 70 points from 33 matches in that scenario.

Another 21 wins, 7 draws, 5 losses. That would be a ridiculous season. Bear in mind our greatest total in the Premier League era is 72 points from 38 matches under Martinez and we were brilliant that season (including a 7 match winning streak).

If we have the Champions League total at 70 points however, we would need 55 points from 33 matches.

15 wins, 10 draws, 8 losses. It would seem much more realistic to draw a conclusion that that is achievable, from what would still be a small though very promising sample size.

Thankfully we have the luxury of playing one match a week through to mid December, which gives us a better opportunity to ride out this initial wave as long as possible.

That is a good way of looking at things. I mean it's worth noting 67 points gets you 3rd last season. At times 73/4 would have confortably got you 2nd.

I think the league will be a lot more open this season and have said so for some time. Liverpool and City have come back to the pack. How far? It's a worthwhile question and harder to predict but they are coming back. United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal all look quite strong in their own way, but also vulnerable. Leicester, Wolves and ourselves will also be close. I also quite like the look of Palace, Brighton, Villa, West Ham and Southampton who will take points off teams. Essentially in a roundabout way I think the league will be closer from 1st to 10th.

As for us. All we can keep doing is winning games. Sides who win their first 5 league games tend not to finish lower than 4th and often finish 1st. It's a good detirminant. We are in good company if we can do that. We would have also won at Spurs and beaten last seasons champions, both major markers. I'm not saying we go on and win it, but we are very much in the hunt. I mean in the last 50 years or so we've won our first 4 league games I think on 3 occasions. 1962, 1969 and 1977. We finished 1st, 1st and 4th. It gives you an idea of the grouping we are in.

It's a case of one game at a time for us, and see where we are. In all honesty mate, if we transport time back to 1984, and it's before that Liverpool or United game, if someone had said "if we win at Anfield we can win the thing" you probably get a similar response. A caution, a conservatism and it's understandable. However winning games in the way we are, developing balance and that winning feeling is worth an awful lot. We also have a manager at the helm who knows what he's doing.

I won't be going on and on about it, as frankly the players will not need the pressure. I like us going under the radar, a bit like Leicester did in 2016/17 or even what we did in 2004 to get 4th. I'm happy just winning in the background for now.