Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Branded as Project Fear wasn't it? Checks at the border?

I beg to differ Bruce. What was branded "Project Fear", was the projected EFFECT that these trade barriers would have on our country, both logistically and on the economy. Not the trade barriers themselves.

Once the decision was made that we weren't going to be part of the single market and customs union, an element of trade barriers became inevitable. That should come as no surprise to anybody, whether they voted leave or remain, because the government pre Brexit leaflet that went out to every household in the country made it abundantly clear.
 
Yep. It also seems that this is yet another Brexit related policy decision, made with little or no thought for how it can be implemented before their ‘cast in stone’ self imposed deadline.


It's fair to say that Johnson's insistence that trade and other Brexit negotiations be completed by the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous. These negotiations are going to affect this country for the foreseeable future. Why on earth wouldn't you take any opportunity offered to make sure they were carried out as effectively as possible. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
 
It's fair to say that Johnson's insistence that trade and other Brexit negotiations be completed by the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous. These negotiations are going to affect this country for the foreseeable future. Why on earth wouldn't you take any opportunity offered to make sure they were carried out as effectively as possible. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
So you can get them over and done with instead of dithering
 
It's fair to say that Johnson's insistence that trade and other Brexit negotiations be completed by the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous. These negotiations are going to affect this country for the foreseeable future. Why on earth wouldn't you take any opportunity offered to make sure they were carried out as effectively as possible. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Had he not done so, the EU would have spun this out over years. A bit of self imposed pressure by way of a date is no bad thing....
 
I beg to differ Bruce. What was branded "Project Fear", was the projected EFFECT that these trade barriers would have on our country, both logistically and on the economy. Not the trade barriers themselves.

Once the decision was made that we weren't going to be part of the single market and customs union, an element of trade barriers became inevitable. That should come as no surprise to anybody, whether they voted leave or remain, because the government pre Brexit leaflet that went out to every household in the country made it abundantly clear.

So why did leave campaigners, such as Gove, say repeatedly that no such barriers would exist after we leave the EU? If he was so confident that WTO would be fine and dandy, why did no one in the leave camp run with that front and centre? As you say, the government and the remain camp, highlighted that fact, but those on the leave side regarded that as piffle and project fear, stating instead that it would be the easiest deal in history, the EU need us more than we need them, and that trade would not only remain as smooth as it is now, but would be even more so.

No one mentioned, as Mogg has taken to recently, that any benefits might not be felt for 50 years. No one mentioned that barriers would be erected for trade (and for the umpteenth time, this is not about tariffs, but the non-tariff barriers that will be so damaging to the trans-continental supply chains that our businesses have).
 
Had he not done so, the EU would have spun this out over years. A bit of self imposed pressure by way of a date is no bad thing....
Oh come on Pete. We're talking about a 12 month extension that has been offered to us.

It's not beyond Johnson to go back on his word and agree to extend the implementation period and I'm clinging to the hope that common sense will prevail. The original WA that May agreed had a 2 year implementation period for the future relationship agreement to be negotiated. The EU offer of extension is, in my opinion, merely restoring the status quo and I don't see any problem in accepting that. Instead, what we have is this "how big is your penis" competition which will have no realistic outcome other than rushing into a deal that will prove detrimental to both the UK and the EU.

You keep on going on about the country (in other words remainers) getting behind Boris in the Brexit negotiations. How can you expect any conciliation on their part whilst Johnson is showing no sign of compromise himself? It works 2 ways mate.
 
Bruce, every single politician that has ever been, in this country and every other, has lied to the electorate. No, I do not like being lied to, but from certain people I expect it.....
This lot are taking blatant lies to Trumpian levels. To excuse it with such weak whataboutery is of course your choice. However, the problem with cheering on blatant liars is that they’ll take your acceptance and continue lying. So don’t cry when they inevitably lie about something you don’t agree with - as you enabled it.
 
Bruce, every single politician that has ever been, in this country and every other, has lied to the electorate. No, I do not like being lied to, but from certain people I expect it.....
So by your own logic, project fear was indeed correct to assume their would be no frictionless EU trade once Brexit was being implemented!
 
The UK’s place in the world

Brexit%2Bcartoon.jpg


As an economist, I naturally focus on the economic aspects of the EU. The EU is mostly about economics. To counterpoise sovereignty as an alternative perspective to economics misses an important point: most EU rules stem from the economics of free trade within the EU. The EU wants common regulations to make it easier to trade. The EU wants restrictions on state aid to prevent countries giving their own firms an advantage over others in the union. Much the same applies to labour market and environmental standards.

Economics is also involved in another aspect of being in or out of the EU, and that is how the UK sees its place in the world. Is the UK’s identity partly a European identity, or does the UK ‘stand alone’, independent of all multinational blocs. Anyone interested in this question should read an excellent and compact essay by the ‘Red Historian’, Robert Saunders.

Those who want us out of Europe need to address why the UK became part of Europe in the first place. After the war, the UK had tried a different strategy. After all, being part of Europe did not look very attractive in the aftermath of a war that had destroyed large parts of it. Instead the UK tried to forge its place in the world based on its history, a history of empire.

This involved three elements: the remains of Empire, the Commonwealth, and our special relationship with the US. Harold Macmillan spoke of Britain playing ‘Greece’ to America’s ‘Rome’, acting as a wise counselor to its idealistic but naive successor. But that strategy failed, because neither the Commonwealth or the US were particularly interested in playing their allotted roles in this scheme.

Two quotes from Saunders’ essay are indicative. The American Dean Acheson said ‘The attempt to play a separate power role’, he declared, ‘a role apart from Europe, a role based on a “special relationship” with the United States, a role based on being the head of a “commonwealth” which has no political structure, or unity, or strength … this role is about played out’. Privately, Harold Macmillan agreed: ‘all our policies at home and abroad’, he lamented, ‘are in ruins’.

This is why we became a part of the EU. The UK wanted to continue to play some significant role in the world, and our attempt to do so independently of Europe had failed. So now we have left the EU, is there any coherent vision of an alternative strategy?

In the Brexit debate you can hear an echo of the failed post-war strategy. No trade deal with the EU is now apparently called the Australian relationship, because that sounds better. We also hear an echo of an even earlier history, when appeals are made to the UK’s buccaneering spirit. However, as Adam Curtis explored in a 1999 documentary (HT Adam Tooze), there is a modern counterpart to this, which is the story of how we ended up selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. But as Robert Shrimsley points out, this vision conflicts with the government's new found need to worry about left behind regions with what some ministers call 'legacy industries'.

Yet stories and exceptions apart, the truth is UK industry is not particularly buccaneering. This has nothing to do with being constrained by the EU, as a comparison with Germany makes obvious. In fact the opposite is the case. One of my first jobs after I graduated was looking at the steady and significant decline in the UK’s share of exports in world trade, which was something of an obsession among UK policymakers.

The UK’s weakness is perhaps not surprising in a country where the middle classes regard an engineer as someone who fixes your washing machine. What the UK does well is produce financial, business and other services. But to successfully export these often requires pretty deep trade agreements, like the EU single market. Which is why our export share within the EU rose so substantially after the Single Market was formed. Which major economies are going to enter into the equivalent of the Single Market with the UK?

There is little sign that the current government, and particularly those who lead it, understand anything of this. Comic book stories substitute for solid evidence. They have shown us nothing to suggest that the UK can continue to have any voice among those of dominant players like the US, EU, China, India, Russia and Japan. As Robert Saunders writes

“In writing a history of Britain as a small power, it pretends that nothing has changed: that a nation stripped of its colonies, its industrial power and its control over global finance has the same options today as in the age of its pre-eminence. That means that we are not being serious about the choices in front of us.”

Does the UK need to have a special place in the world? Can we not accept that others will take the key decisions, and we will just have to do what we can in a world over which we have no control? As Saunders notes, in a benign world this might be tenable, but we no longer live in a benign world. This is where the economics of trade re-enters the equation. A UK with no big country or union to help protect it will be at the mercy of any big global player that wants to gain some trade advantage at our expense.

For many in the ERG the implicit answer to this problem is the United States. They are encouraged by Trump’s enthusiasm for Brexit. They fail to see that his enthusiasm is based on antagonism towards the EU and his desire to exploit our weakness. For those who have a nostalgia for days of glory that weakness will be hard to take, as it will be when our legacies of empire are gradually taken off our hands along with the trappings of international influence.

For all these reasons, Brexit is not tenable in the long term, as those who tried and failed to make it work after the war finally understood. Their conclusion will be our conclusion after Brexit: for the UK to flourish in a secure environment it has to be part of the EU. The only question is how long this realisation takes and the manner of our rejoining.


PS = Loving our new friends so far...
 
So why did leave campaigners, such as Gove, say repeatedly that no such barriers would exist after we leave the EU? If he was so confident that WTO would be fine and dandy, why did no one in the leave camp run with that front and centre? As you say, the government and the remain camp, highlighted that fact, but those on the leave side regarded that as piffle and project fear, stating instead that it would be the easiest deal in history, the EU need us more than we need them, and that trade would not only remain as smooth as it is now, but would be even more so.

No one mentioned, as Mogg has taken to recently, that any benefits might not be felt for 50 years. No one mentioned that barriers would be erected for trade (and for the umpteenth time, this is not about tariffs, but the non-tariff barriers that will be so damaging to the trans-continental supply chains that our businesses have).
As you and others have repeatedly said, and many leavers have repeatedly acknowledged (even in here), lies were told in the Brexit campaign. But I have not seen anywhere politicians saying there would be NO barriers to trade in the event we left the single market and customs union. If they have done, which I still need to be convinced of, then they were lying and anybody with any sense would know that.

I repeat, project fear is all about the over pessimistic projections on the effect of those barriers. As a remainer, it suits your stance to agree with the projections which I totally get. I just disagree with you.
 
It's fair to say that Johnson's insistence that trade and other Brexit negotiations be completed by the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous. These negotiations are going to affect this country for the foreseeable future. Why on earth wouldn't you take any opportunity offered to make sure they were carried out as effectively as possible. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
The hardest of hard Brexits,maybe.Rees Mogg:bye:
 
The UK’s place in the world

Brexit%2Bcartoon.jpg


As an economist, I naturally focus on the economic aspects of the EU. The EU is mostly about economics. To counterpoise sovereignty as an alternative perspective to economics misses an important point: most EU rules stem from the economics of free trade within the EU. The EU wants common regulations to make it easier to trade. The EU wants restrictions on state aid to prevent countries giving their own firms an advantage over others in the union. Much the same applies to labour market and environmental standards.

Economics is also involved in another aspect of being in or out of the EU, and that is how the UK sees its place in the world. Is the UK’s identity partly a European identity, or does the UK ‘stand alone’, independent of all multinational blocs. Anyone interested in this question should read an excellent and compact essay by the ‘Red Historian’, Robert Saunders.

Those who want us out of Europe need to address why the UK became part of Europe in the first place. After the war, the UK had tried a different strategy. After all, being part of Europe did not look very attractive in the aftermath of a war that had destroyed large parts of it. Instead the UK tried to forge its place in the world based on its history, a history of empire.

This involved three elements: the remains of Empire, the Commonwealth, and our special relationship with the US. Harold Macmillan spoke of Britain playing ‘Greece’ to America’s ‘Rome’, acting as a wise counselor to its idealistic but naive successor. But that strategy failed, because neither the Commonwealth or the US were particularly interested in playing their allotted roles in this scheme.

Two quotes from Saunders’ essay are indicative. The American Dean Acheson said ‘The attempt to play a separate power role’, he declared, ‘a role apart from Europe, a role based on a “special relationship” with the United States, a role based on being the head of a “commonwealth” which has no political structure, or unity, or strength … this role is about played out’. Privately, Harold Macmillan agreed: ‘all our policies at home and abroad’, he lamented, ‘are in ruins’.

This is why we became a part of the EU. The UK wanted to continue to play some significant role in the world, and our attempt to do so independently of Europe had failed. So now we have left the EU, is there any coherent vision of an alternative strategy?

In the Brexit debate you can hear an echo of the failed post-war strategy. No trade deal with the EU is now apparently called the Australian relationship, because that sounds better. We also hear an echo of an even earlier history, when appeals are made to the UK’s buccaneering spirit. However, as Adam Curtis explored in a 1999 documentary (HT Adam Tooze), there is a modern counterpart to this, which is the story of how we ended up selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. But as Robert Shrimsley points out, this vision conflicts with the government's new found need to worry about left behind regions with what some ministers call 'legacy industries'.

Yet stories and exceptions apart, the truth is UK industry is not particularly buccaneering. This has nothing to do with being constrained by the EU, as a comparison with Germany makes obvious. In fact the opposite is the case. One of my first jobs after I graduated was looking at the steady and significant decline in the UK’s share of exports in world trade, which was something of an obsession among UK policymakers.

The UK’s weakness is perhaps not surprising in a country where the middle classes regard an engineer as someone who fixes your washing machine. What the UK does well is produce financial, business and other services. But to successfully export these often requires pretty deep trade agreements, like the EU single market. Which is why our export share within the EU rose so substantially after the Single Market was formed. Which major economies are going to enter into the equivalent of the Single Market with the UK?

There is little sign that the current government, and particularly those who lead it, understand anything of this. Comic book stories substitute for solid evidence. They have shown us nothing to suggest that the UK can continue to have any voice among those of dominant players like the US, EU, China, India, Russia and Japan. As Robert Saunders writes

“In writing a history of Britain as a small power, it pretends that nothing has changed: that a nation stripped of its colonies, its industrial power and its control over global finance has the same options today as in the age of its pre-eminence. That means that we are not being serious about the choices in front of us.”

Does the UK need to have a special place in the world? Can we not accept that others will take the key decisions, and we will just have to do what we can in a world over which we have no control? As Saunders notes, in a benign world this might be tenable, but we no longer live in a benign world. This is where the economics of trade re-enters the equation. A UK with no big country or union to help protect it will be at the mercy of any big global player that wants to gain some trade advantage at our expense.

For many in the ERG the implicit answer to this problem is the United States. They are encouraged by Trump’s enthusiasm for Brexit. They fail to see that his enthusiasm is based on antagonism towards the EU and his desire to exploit our weakness. For those who have a nostalgia for days of glory that weakness will be hard to take, as it will be when our legacies of empire are gradually taken off our hands along with the trappings of international influence.

For all these reasons, Brexit is not tenable in the long term, as those who tried and failed to make it work after the war finally understood. Their conclusion will be our conclusion after Brexit: for the UK to flourish in a secure environment it has to be part of the EU. The only question is how long this realisation takes and the manner of our rejoining.


PS = Loving our new friends so far...
Excellent piece that mate.
 
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