Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

No this can't be true, because everyone on here keeps telling me it's the UK that's doomed and that we must bow down to our European masters.......

Come now Pete, you're a Tory supporter so I'm sure even you can see that an ostensibly socialist French government attempting to deny the need to tighten the purse strings since 2008 has very little to do with the EU and was always doomed to struggle. Equally, I'm sure you will also agree that a healthy and flourishing France (in both economic and democratic terms) is much better than one that is bankrupt and teetering on having a fascist government. Does it help Britain if parts of Europe burn just so we can say "told you so"?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The majority of countries are a waste of space. There are only four or five worth doing business with and the biggest of which is Germany........

I hope you're trolling with such a comment, especially as I'm sure you know full well that there are many members on this site from those countries you just dismissed. Even if you really are that crass, I would have thought you would be aware that the German economy you speak so fondly of is fueled in large part by the Mittlestad, who specialize in things that everyone else regards as a waste of space (like @hullefc's lift perhaps)

Lest we forget and all that.

 

[bizzaro]

What is this blatantly obvious of which you speak. Are you really suggesting that the largest, most wealthy and biggest growing economy in the Eu will not get its way ?

Have you actually looked at what the EU is......

Name Capital Accession Population[7] Area (km2)
Austria Vienna 1 January 1995 8,584,926 83,855
Belgium Brussels Founder 11,258,434 30,528
Bulgaria Sofia 1 January 2007 7,202,198 110,994
Croatia Zagreb 1 July 2013 4,225,316 56,594
Cyprus Nicosia 1 May 2004 1,141,166 9,251
Czech Republic Prague 1 May 2004 10,538,275 78,866
Denmark Copenhagen 1 January 1973 5,659,715 43,075
Estonia Tallinn 1 May 2004 1,313,271 45,227
Finland Helsinki 1 January 1995 5,471,753 338,424
France Paris Founder 66,352,469 640,679
Germany Berlin Founder[d] 81,174,000 357,021
Greece Athens 1 January 1981 10,812,467 131,990
Hungary Budapest 1 May 2004 9,849,000 93,030
Ireland Dublin 1 January 1973 4,625,885 70,273
Italy Rome Founder 60,795,612 301,338
Latvia Riga 1 May 2004 1,986,096 64,589
Lithuania Vilnius 1 May 2004 2,921,262 65,200
Luxembourg Luxembourg City Founder 562,958 2,586
Malta Valletta 1 May 2004 429,344 316
Netherlands Amsterdam Founder 16,900,726 41,543
Poland Warsaw 1 May 2004 38,005,614 312,685
Portugal Lisbon 1 January 1986 10,374,822 92,390
Romania Bucharest 1 January 2007 19,861,408 238,391
Slovakia Bratislava 1 May 2004 5,421,349 49,035
Slovenia Ljubljana 1 May 2004 2,062,874 20,273
Spain Madrid 1 January 1986 46,439,864 504,030
Sweden Stockholm 1 January 1995 9,747,355 449,964


This is the whole of Europe Not just EU By GDP

2014 Rank Country 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
1 Germany 3,418.371 3,755.549 3,535.199 3,831.427 3,859.547
2 United Kingdom 2,409.409 2,594.114 2,624.291 2,680.123 2,945.146
3 France 2,651.772 2,865.304 2,688.210 2,807.306 2,846.889
4 Italy 2,130.586 2,280.315 2,076.370 2,137.615 2,147.952
5 Russia 1,524.915 1,904.790 2,015.154 2,079.134 1,857.461
6 Spain 1,434.257 1,495.968 1,356.483 1,393.476 1,406.855
7 Netherlands 837.949 894.576 823.595 853.806 866.354
8 Turkey 731.539 774.729 788.605 821.918 806.108
9 Switzerland 580.696 696.528 665.898 685.871 712.050
10 Sweden 488.378 563.110 579.526 570.137
11 Poland 476.528 524.104 496.687 526.031 546.644
12 Belgium 485.307 528.721 499.129 524.970 534.672
13 Norway 428.527 498.157 509.705 522.349 500.244
14 Austria 390.383 429.493 407.801 428.456 437.123
15 Denmark 319.812 341.498 322.277 335.878 340.806
16 Finland 248.262 273.925 256.849 268.281 271.165
17 Ireland 218.843 237.990 222.089 232.150 246.438
18 Greece 300.156 289.068 249.663 242.306 238.023
19 Portugal 238.748 245.120 216.488 224.983 230.012
20 Czech Republic 207.016 227.307 206.751 208.796 205.658
21 Romania 167.986 186.113 172.041 191.598 199.950
22 Hungary 129.585 139.447 126.825 133.424 137.104
23 Ukraine 136.011 163.307 175.707 179.572 130.660
24 Slovakia 89.173 97.621 92.799 97.743 99.971
25 Belarus 55.221 59.735 63.615 71.710 76.139
26 Luxembourg 52.241 59.010 56.323 60.150 62.395
27 Croatia 59.611 62.172 56.484 57.849 57.159
28 Bulgaria 48.782 55.799 52.613 54.517 55.837
29 Slovenia 48.060 51.299 46.288 48.005 49.506
30 Lithuania 37.155 43.478 42.828 46.426 48.232
31 Serbia 39.035 46.488 40.749 45.520 43.866
32 Latvia 24.112 28.488 28.343 30.838 31.970
33 Estonia 19.529 22.824 22.673 24.888 25.953
34 Cyprus 25.294 27.114 24.954 24.065 23.269
35 Bosnia and Herzegovina 16.847 18.318 16.906 17.852 17.977
36 Iceland 13.261 14.666 14.183 15.330 16.693
37 Albania 11.927 12.891 12.345 12.916 13.262
38 Macedonia 9.433 10.659 9.751 10.774 11.342
39 Malta 8.757 9.604 9.289 10.056 10.582
40 Moldova 5.813 7.018 7.283 7.985 7.944
41 Montenegro 4.118 4.500 4.048 4.419 4.462
42 San Marino 2.143 2.056 1.802 1.802 1.786


The majority of countries are a waste of space. There are only four or five worth doing business with and the biggest of which is Germany........

You called Slovakia a 'minnow' the day before yesterday.

It has a population greater than New Zealand.

In business. Everyone is worth doing business with. Provided it's legal and they have the same interests as us. You're talking utter tosh.

 

[peteblue]

Come now Pete, you're a Tory supporter so I'm sure even you can see that an ostensibly socialist French government attempting to deny the need to tighten the purse strings since 2008 has very little to do with the EU and was always doomed to struggle. Equally, I'm sure you will also agree that a healthy and flourishing France (in both economic and democratic terms) is much better than one that is bankrupt and teetering on having a fascist government. Does it help Britain if parts of Europe burn just so we can say "told you so"?

I didn't say anything like that Bruce. I just pointed out that it seems a number of people on here seem happy to rubbish the UK while ignoring the performance of other countries. I believe we will all do well, providing everyone acts sensibly during our exit and negotiations.....

 

[peteblue]

I hope you're trolling with such a comment, especially as I'm sure you know full well that there are many members on this site from those countries you just dismissed. Even if you really are that crass, I would have thought you would be aware that the German economy you speak so fondly of is fueled in large part by the Mittlestad, who specialize in things that everyone else regards as a waste of space (like @hullefc's lift perhaps)

Lest we forget and all that.

I missed out the word economically.......It's the pareto principle I was getting at.......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I didn't say anything like that Bruce. I just pointed out that it seems a number of people on here seem happy to rubbish the UK while ignoring the performance of other countries. I believe we will all do well, providing everyone acts sensibly during our exit and negotiations.....

It's quite possible that I'm looking at things through my own lens, but I've never seen those in the remain camp as putting Britain down at all but rather suggesting that Britain is stronger when Europe is stronger, and weaker when Europe is weaker. We might poke fun at imagined rivalries, but in reality we both need each other to be strong, vibrant and open. I'm no fan of Hollande and his policies, but I'd feel incredibly sad if the nation responded to their issues by electing Le Pen. That would be an utter tragedy.

 

[peteblue]

You called Slovakia a 'minnow' the day before yesterday.

It has a population greater than New Zealand.

In business. Everyone is worth doing business with. Provided it's legal and they have the same interests as us. You're talking utter tosh.

So with a smaller population, New Zealand has about twice the GDP of Slovakia.....what was your point again......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I missed out the word economically.......It's the pareto principle I was getting at.......

Isn't that incredibly risky though? A big undercurrent for this whole affair is the disenfranchisement many people feel with globalisation in Britain, so if you talk about it in the terms you mentioned previously, there are many of those folks who are, to use your term, economically a waste of space. Should the UK disregard Blackpool and Hull just as you would like to disregard Slovenia and Bulgaria? That seems a very slippery slope to me.

 

[peteblue]

It's quite possible that I'm looking at things through my own lens, but I've never seen those in the remain camp as putting Britain down at all but rather suggesting that Britain is stronger when Europe is stronger, and weaker when Europe is weaker. We might poke fun at imagined rivalries, but in reality we both need each other to be strong, vibrant and open. I'm no fan of Hollande and his policies, but I'd feel incredibly sad if the nation responded to their issues by electing Le Pen. That would be an utter tragedy.

But that is for the French. Looking in from the outside is never the same as actually being there. The EU has taken a path that I believe could lead to it's destruction. Trying to shoehorn this vast group of ethnically diverse people with few common bonds or cultures into a Superstate, run by Brussels, is doomed. The eastern European states need something because they are desperately poor and see the EU as a way to prosper. However the barriers went up pretty sharpish when the asylum seekers arrived. The Eu as a trade bloc is wonderful, as the next superstate it will implode and it is this that is the real tragedy......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But that is for the French. Looking in from the outside is never the same as actually being there. The EU has taken a path that I believe could lead to it's destruction. Trying to shoehorn this vast group of ethnically diverse people with few common bonds or cultures into a Superstate, run by Brussels, is doomed. The eastern European states need something because they are desperately poor and see the EU as a way to prosper. However the barriers went up pretty sharpish when the asylum seekers arrived. The Eu as a trade bloc is wonderful, as the next superstate it will implode and it is this that is the real tragedy......

Well, firstly I wouldn't say that those eastern European states are desperately poor as you say, and certainly not in comparison with parts of the world where poverty is crippling.

Secondly, as I mentioned previously, the bulk of most trade deals these days are in non-tariff areas, as most tariffs are quite low already. They revolve around things such as standardisation of products and regulations to ensure fair competition can take place. Now some may regard that as sensible, others may regard that as evidence of sovereignty being suppressed and rules imposed by far off states. If you're to have the global trade that you want however, I'm not sure how that can be avoided, whether inside or outside of the EU.

 

[peteblue]

Isn't that incredibly risky though? A big undercurrent for this whole affair is the disenfranchisement many people feel with globalisation in Britain, so if you talk about it in the terms you mentioned previously, there are many of those folks who are, to use your term, economically a waste of space. Should the UK disregard Blackpool and Hull just as you would like to disregard Slovenia and Bulgaria? That seems a very slippery slope to me.

No, they are part of the Uk and we should all support them as we would any member of our own family. What I was getting at is that we don't need to do deals with every country in Europe or indeed the world. The effort to set some deals up far outweighs any benefit, so don't do it. The other point is that some on here still don't get the fact that the EU will dance to the tune of Germany because it's the biggest economy, population etc. And will use it's economy to strong arm other nations. The UK and Germany get on quite well, we are different but we are both successful, neither country wants to screw up the others economy and so a deal will be done, one way or the other. If countries like Bulgaria wish to trade with the UK, and there is mutual benefit, then deals will be done. The difference for the UK now is that we can get back out into the RoW and stop wasting time on the political games within the EU.........

 

[peteblue]

Well, firstly I wouldn't say that those eastern European states are desperately poor as you say, and certainly not in comparison with parts of the world where poverty is crippling.

Secondly, as I mentioned previously, the bulk of most trade deals these days are in non-tariff areas, as most tariffs are quite low already. They revolve around things such as standardisation of products and regulations to ensure fair competition can take place. Now some may regard that as sensible, others may regard that as evidence of sovereignty being suppressed and rules imposed by far off states. If you're to have the global trade that you want however, I'm not sure how that can be avoided, whether inside or outside of the EU.

Standardisation is brilliant if you hold the dominant position already. It usually means you set the standards and it gives you an inbuilt advantage, a bit like the way UEFA brought in FFP for the benefit of the already wealthy clubs. I accept that the east Europeans are nowhere near as poor as other parts of the world, but they are nowhere near as wealthy as the West, even though they have the potential. Global trade requires adaptability, something we are good at, the Eu wants everything on its own terms which doesn't play well outside of Europe........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Standardisation is brilliant if you hold the dominant position already. It usually means you set the standards and it gives you an inbuilt advantage, a bit like the way UEFA brought in FFP for the benefit of the already wealthy clubs. I accept that the east Europeans are nowhere near as poor as other parts of the world, but they are nowhere near as wealthy as the West, even though they have the potential. Global trade requires adaptability, something we are good at, the Eu wants everything on its own terms which doesn't play well outside of Europe........

So, if (when) we strike a deal with the EU we will be the junior partner in that deal (as the EU economy is collectively larger than ours) and we'll have to accept their standards?

 

[peteblue]

So, if (when) we strike a deal with the EU we will be the junior partner in that deal (as the EU economy is collectively larger than ours) and we'll have to accept their standards?

We do now anyway as a matter of course. For the future we can pick and choose or do what we wish, but if we wish to change our standards on say lightbulb fittings, then anyone from the EU wishing to sell lightbulbs will have to agree to manufacture to our standards or our market is off limits......again, it's not a one way street......

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/07/herman-van-rompuy-uk-free-movement-single-market-eu