Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Barnfred 55]

I don't buy your Everton analogy at all.
Why not mate. It's been inferred that people should rethink their views on Brexit because there are a group of right wing racist thugs that also support Brexit. These are a minority of the 17+m who voted to leave. The vast majority of Everton supporters are good people. But we have our own minority of scummy supporters and if you are a regular at games you'll know I'm telling the truth. The racist thugs don't represent the vast majority of leave voters in much the same way as the scum you sometimes see in Everton shirts do not represent the majority of Everton fans.
As far as I can see, immigration/freedom of movement is a major reason for voting to leave. What happened on Friday was an extreme manifestation of an anti immigration theme that permeates the leave campaign.
There is a difference between being anti immigration and wanting more control over immigration. I have made numerous posts on this subject. In a nutshell I have advocated we should take our fair share of asylum seekers, that we should take on more foreign students as this is profitable to our Universities, and I have said that we should issue work permit visa's to meet demand for jobs, and that these should be issued on the basis of ability to do the jobs rather than where they come from. It could actually open the door to increased immigration from outside the EU. These are my views that I have repeated often enough in here, but still been referred to as racist.
You've been a very reasonable poster Barnfred but I'm still at a loss as to why you want to leave.
Is it sovereignty/nationalism?
Is it immigration?
Is it economics?
Is it that you don't feel represented in Europe?
Is it a fear of a European super state (remembering that the UK has/had a veto)
Probably a mixture of all the above apart from the last one which is just, imo, scaremongering. I won't go into detail though as I've done this often enough before. You'll appreciate that the demographics of this forum is that 95% of posters disagree with me. So I end up with having half a dozen different conversations as to why I'm wrong, and it all gets a bit intimidating not to mention tedious.
What happened on Friday was fringe extremists given a main stream platform thanks to a national campaign of fear, hate, division and misinformation.
I'm not having a go, just trying to divide the sentiment that leads to Robinson et al other reasons people want to leave.
What happened Friday was a group of right wing racists TOOK a platform and used it to emphasise just how scummy they are. I have repeated myself about 4 or 5 times now on this. They do not represent me and I strongly believe they do not represent any of the leave voters that I either know or have spoken to personally. In fact, the one racially motivated voter I have spoken to personally told me he voted remain because, in my watered down version, he disliked eastern Europeans less than black and Asian people.

 

[roydo]

I can see Common Market 2.0 getting a majority tonight. May would call election to dissolve parliament to avoid it. Or she could resign and we'd have one.

Oh, and for no point of course.

I am starting to lose the plot on this. The HOC could vote for green tea but the EU would still have to agree to it wouldnt they?

A GE would be not much more than another epic Yes/No fest, with probably a few surprise results, but with no guarantee of a significant change in the HOC numbers.

And if, for example, the LP campaigned on a 2 referendum, then they would risk a Toryesq split it their ranks, and Remain Tory voters weighing up a Referendum versus a Corbyn Government.

Its bloody nuts all this.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I can see Common Market 2.0 getting a majority tonight. May would call election to dissolve parliament to avoid it. Or she could resign and we'd have one.

Oh, and for no point of course.

I personally would just go with it. It won't please the majority of leave voters (or remain voters for that matter) but we need a quick solution to the problem and an end to all the uncertainty, which is proving more damaging than anything else at the moment.

It represents big concessions by both sides but again, I think that's the only basis whereby both sides can start to come together again, and the country can start focusing on the issues that really matter, like stopping the RS winning the league

 

[Barnfred 55]

Now is the worst time possible for a general election. Brexit is so much of a massive issue at the moment that each party's stance on the EU would dominate people's decisions when there should be so many other issues to consider as well.
The next general election shouldn't take place until Brexit is 100% resolved.

Then let's hope they get a deal done this week. Because if they don't then a general election will almost certainly be the outcome. And as you say, it will be fought around Brexit. That's assuming that none of the 27 don't veto the long extension to article 50 that will allow the general election, in which case we'll have left with no deal.

 

[St Domestos]

'IF' a General Election is called - Labour will be destroyed in the North..

Remain campaigners have shouted the loudest but be aware of the silent majority.

Personally it won't effect me if we stay or leave. Seen and lived through worse times - Merseyside in 70's & 80's worse than any Brexit fallout

 

[roydo]

This Common Market 2.0 sounds pretty good to me. LP and SNP for it, think it solves the border issue, just people who dont like/dont understand the freedom of movement of people would have an issue with it.

 

[Tubey]

This Common Market 2.0 sounds pretty good to me. LP and SNP for it, think it solves the border issue, just people who dont like/dont understand the freedom of movement of people would have an issue with it.

So 95% of Brexiteers then.

 

[Armel]

I can see Common Market 2.0 getting a majority tonight.

Is that the proposal that champions membership of EFTA (assuming existing EFTA members agree, because it would change the entire power balance of the organisation)? Why would that work? Freedom of movement etc persists... Still substantial contributions to the EU... Oh and it requires a big dose of humility, since essentially you just become a rule taker. Even the courts are very similar since they usually follow ECJ (logical for the uniformity of th EEA). I suppose it's good if you're really anal about fishery/agricultural policies and a few other minor things.

I don't think this is something a lot of Brexiteers envisioned when they voted Leave.

 

[dwightschrute]

Common Market 2.0 is brexit in name only and will please the tory/Labour die hard brexiteers even less than May's deal, in fact if it gets a majority in favour tonight and she makes it a choice between that and her deal I think she'd get the ERG back on side because of their obsession with no customs union and striking biggly trade deals with Timbuktu and her deal would finally pass

 

[roydo]

So 95% of Brexiteers then.

Maybe. Buts its Parliament now.

And like I said, most folk dont seem to get the actual reality of our immigration "issue" anyrate. They just get spooked by the usual suspects.

 

[sbbefc]

Could we not have a series of referendums to solve the issue? For example you could have have remain, Mays deal, customs union type deal and no deal as options.

Whittle them down to the preferred option over the course of a fortnight. Many countries do it this way and the tory leadership elections, so I don't see the issue.

 

[Tubey]

Is that the proposal that champions membership of EFTA (assuming existing EFTA members agree, because it would change the entire power balance of the organisation)? Why would that work? Freedom of movement etc persists... Still substantial contributions to the EU... Oh and it requires a big dose of humility, since essentially you just become a rule taker. Even the courts are very similar since they usually follow ECJ (logical for the uniformity of th EEA). I suppose it's good if you're really anal about fishery/agricultural policies and a few other minor things.

I don't think this is something a lot of Brexiteers envisioned when they voted Leave.

It's stupid. It is leaving the role we had in the EU with a voice of power to take up the same thing but with no power.

It's actually legitimately stupid but I think it has a chance of a majority.

The better course of action and honestly the common sense one is a second referendum between May's deal and remain. Two well defined, enactable outcomes instead of crackpot things like revoke or no deal.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Could we not have a series of referendums to solve the issue? For example you could have have remain, Mays deal, customs union type deal and no deal as options.

Whittle them down to the preferred option over the course of a fortnight. Many countries do it this way and the tory leadership elections, so I don't see the issue.

You only really need one referendum to do this.

 

[Jebus_lives]

what happens when we end up with a slim tory majority again?! lol

It might depend on the type of Tory that gets in.

 

[Khalekan]

Now is the worst time possible for a general election. Brexit is so much of a massive issue at the moment that each party's stance on the EU would dominate people's decisions when there should be so many other issues to consider as well.
The next general election shouldn't take place until Brexit is 100% resolved.

You wha?

My grandchildren will be drawing their pension before they get a vote at this rate of going