Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Gwladysstreetlad]

OldBlue have had this discussion many times, and I still can't fathom how it's seemingly acceptable for leave voters to have put their cross in the leave box having given no thought to how what they want could be implemented or indeed whether it could. All warnings that it would be harmful were gleefully dismissed as project fear. Those actually campaigning to leave produced nothing in the way of a manifesto for what leaving would look like or how it could be achieved (which is, of course, straight from the populist playbook of giving as few details as possible on anything you claim will transform people's lives). Yet despite those who have given it a lot of thought saying it would be rubbish, and those thinking it would be great giving it no thought at all, you still felt it'd be a great idea to vote as you did.

Tories are big on individual responsibility, that society is but a construct of our own individual actions, so it's surely only right and proper that leave voters take responsibility for their role in this?

Yes Bruce, we've more then established over the course of the 2339 pages of this thread and all the ones that came before it how foolish you feel leave voters were to vote as we did. There really is no point in my pointing out that it was a perfectly reasonable assumption from leave voters that the PM who called the referendum would have a plan for the potential out vote is there?

I could point out that your demand that leave campaigners deal with brexit is simpley foolish. What exacally are they supposed to do? Overthrow the grovermant and make all the decisions in a brexit coalition party? It might of worked better then the fiasco of a government were everyone has been stuck with May the calling the shots and bungling up everying nicely. Let's be honest here Bruce, you wouldn't of accepted anything put forward by anyone on the leave side anyway regardless of what was said or how well worked out it was.

I could also point out that people like you ultimately also played a part in the leave vote with your needless condescension. The remain side could and would of won had they simply fought a positive campaign extolling the virtues of the EU. Instead they chose to fight a campaign built around calling anyone who'd even contemplated voting out either stupid or a racist, along with doomsday scenarios of the sky falling in the day after a leave result. Unsurprisingly it didn't work out very well.

There is a reason that the same people and parties continue to have an iron grip on this country and have free reign to ruin it. It's because it's people refuse to unite today in an effort to fix tomorrow. Instead people like you continue to fight yesterday's, last weeks, last months, last year's battles. You'd rather score points againt strangers about how they voted then find common ground in that we both presumably want what's best for the country and go from there.

I have no idea why you'd assume that I'd care how the Tories perceive society and individual responsibility. The short answer is that I don't. I have no aligances to any one party and will call them all out when I think them wrong. The Tories are responsible for this entire fiasco. Cameron for calling it without any plan going forward and May for bungling it up and leaving nobody happy on either side. Until people like Cameron are held to account for his appalling decision making while PM we will never more forward as a society and nation. Why should our political masters ever work hard and do a good job when Tories will fight Labour, Lib Dems will fight UKIP, Leave will fight remain, leaving the giggling imbeciles calling the shots completely unaccountable.

 

[COYBL25]

I’m just a concerned poster Joey. I love a bit of banter, but it’s painful to see you being mauled on here day after day.

Joeys thread banned me for saying the same.

Tread carefully.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes Bruce, we've more then established over the course of the 2339 pages of this thread and all the ones that came before it how foolish you feel leave voters were to vote as we did. There really is no point in my pointing out that it was a perfectly reasonable assumption from leave voters that the PM who called the referendum would have a plan for the potential out vote is there?

I could point out that your demand that leave campaigners deal with brexit is simpley foolish. What exacally are they supposed to do? Overthrow the grovermant and make all the decisions in a brexit coalition party? It might of worked better then the fiasco of a government were everyone has been stuck with May the calling the shots and bungling up everying nicely. Let's be honest here Bruce, you wouldn't of accepted anything put forward by anyone on the leave side anyway regardless of what was said or how well worked out it was.

I could also point out that people like you ultimately also played a part in the leave vote with your needless condescension. The remain side could and would of won had they simply fought a positive campaign extolling the virtues of the EU. Instead they chose to fight a campaign built around calling anyone who'd even contemplated voting out either stupid or a racist, along with doomsday scenarios of the sky falling in the day after a leave result. Unsurprisingly it didn't work out very well.

There is a reason that the same people and parties continue to have an iron grip on this country and have free reign to ruin it. It's because it's people refuse to unite today in an effort to fix tomorrow. Instead people like you continue to fight yesterday's, last weeks, last months, last year's battles. You'd rather score points againt strangers about how they voted then find common ground in that we both presumably want what's best for the country and go from there.

I have no idea why you'd assume that I'd care how the Tories perceive society and individual responsibility. The short answer is that I don't. I have no aligances to any one party and will call them all out when I think them wrong. The Tories are responsible for this entire fiasco. Cameron for calling it without any plan going forward and May for bungling it up and leaving nobody happy on either side. Until people like Cameron are held to account for his appalling decision making while PM we will never more forward as a society and nation. Why should our political masters ever work hard and do a good job when Tories will fight Labour, Lib Dems will fight UKIP, Leave will fight remain, leaving the giggling imbeciles calling the shots completely unaccountable.

Why is it a reasonable assumption to believe that people who campaigned to remain had a plan when you were perfectly happy to back leave supporting government ministers who had none? Seems awfully convenient, especially when all subsequent attempts to understand the leave vote are dismissed.

I would have loved a detailed proposition to chew on prior to the vote about what leaving might look like and how it might be achieved. There was nothing though, and this lack of any plan was laughably brushed aside as not wanting to give up our negotiating position. I mean really.

What are people supposed to unite behind? Where has the vision been, either from leavers in government or outside it? Heck you can't even find consensus on what leaving should be between you, Pete and Joey. Usually the buck gets passed to people who don't want to leave to come up with a strategy for you. Time for some responsibility to be taken.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Seriously, I mean people complain about 'doomsday scenarios' being aired, but there is scarcely an industry, community or stakeholder group that is coming out and saying 'leaving the EU will benefit us because...'. As you say, plenty are saying the opposite, but none are lauding the possibilities. Why is that? People weren't doing it before the vote, and in the 2 years since we've not had a peep from anyone. This is what so frustrates people. You talk about being spoken down to, but after two years of this there isn't a manifesto to get behind about how Brexit will help individual stakeholder groups. How long should we wait before someone steps up to the plate?

 

[edge]

Why is it a reasonable assumption to believe that people who campaigned to remain had a plan when you were perfectly happy to back leave supporting government ministers who had none? Seems awfully convenient, especially when all subsequent attempts to understand the leave vote are dismissed.

I would have loved a detailed proposition to chew on prior to the vote about what leaving might look like and how it might be achieved. There was nothing though, and this lack of any plan was laughably brushed aside as not wanting to give up our negotiating position. I mean really.

What are people supposed to unite behind? Where has the vision been, either from leavers in government or outside it? Heck you can't even find consensus on what leaving should be between you, Pete and Joey. Usually the buck gets passed to people who don't want to leave to come up with a strategy for you. Time for some responsibility to be taken.

I did not and never would back the likes of Gove or Johnson, i wanted out for my own reason's which i have put on here repeatedly , not that i have any say in it like the rest of us in real terms.
The strategy for leaving a mutually beneficial trade deal , each other citizens respected if the choose to reside in there chosen country, its not that hard to understand most of the world, get by with deals between each other without the rest of the trapping of a deal with the EU seems to involve , mostly because the people doing the deal have never wanted to leave anyway from day one , from May to most of parliament and the civil service, and have endeavoured to keep us as closely bound as possible without appearing to out two fingers up to voters.
Its turned into a joke we will not leave , it will end up with a second vote and the likes of myself and millions of other will say whats the point its been fixed always has been from day one.
What will not go away is the feeling that the establishment needs to be given a kicking in the future, I hope its by voting with a radical Labour government the likes of this country hasn't seen since the end second world war , but fear it might go to the first populist that taps into the well of discontent that exists in this country.
ok lets turn the tables what will be done will be done to stop the resentment that leave areas felt , when the wanted out , what are your plans for that in the future?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I did not and never would back the likes of Gove or Johnson, i wanted out for my own reason's which i have put on here repeatedly , not that i have any say in it like the rest of us in real terms.
The strategy for leaving a mutually beneficial trade deal , each other citizens respected if the choose to reside in there chosen country, its not that hard to understand most of the world, get by with deals between each other without the rest of the trapping of a deal with the EU seems to involve , mostly because the people doing the deal have never wanted to leave anyway from day one , from May to most of parliament and the civil service, and have endeavoured to keep us as closely bound as possible without appearing to out two fingers up to voters.
Its turned into a joke we will not leave , it will end up with a second vote and the likes of myself and millions of other will say whats the point its been fixed always has been from day one.
What will not go away is the feeling that the establishment needs to be given a kicking in the future, I hope its by voting with a radical Labour government the likes of this country hasn't seen since the end second world war , but fear it might go to the first populist that taps into the well of discontent that exists in this country.
ok lets turn the tables what will be done will be done to stop the resentment that leave areas felt , when the wanted out , what are your plans for that in the future?

I don't know about the future, but in these threads in the past, there seems to be a nexus around change and being able to adapt sufficiently to it. This could be changes in the makeup of communities as a result of migration, or it could be changes in the economic structure of a region as a result of globalisation or technological change. Of course, one approach could be to try and pull up the drawbridge and take a protectionist approach to change, but I don't think that's either wise or sustainable, so we have to help people and communities to adapt (imo).

On the first, it's been said numerous times that the EU provides a fund to help communities cope with changes in their population, but the UK government don't use it. There has been no suggestion to date that this will change, nor that power will be decentralised to give local authorities the powers they need to adapt. This could cover everything from planning regulations to schools and health spending. Britain is one of the most centralised countries in the western world, and achieving real and tangible devolution of powers would be a good start. There has also been a lot of bluster about 'fixing' the housing market, but it has largely been just that, bluster. @abelard favourite publication the Economist have long banged the drum for a land value tax to replace all other property taxes (including stamp duty), and this is one of the few areas I agree with the Labour manifesto on, as I believe they also advocate it.

Infrastructure is another area that Labour are planning to spend heavily on, but imo this is a more complex issue. If you look globally, most of the transformative stuff is happening in cities, due in large part to the scale they give. Large(r) communities have not only larger labour markets but also larger markets to sell whatever is made locally, therefore helping businesses get off the ground. This is especially so when those communities have well renowned universities that act as a magnet for talent from around the world. The Labour argument seems to be to invest in the infrastructure that connects cities outside of London, but will that help the (leave voting) Bolton's and Oldham's of the world, or will it make it easier for (remain voting) Manchester to suck in people from further afield? I don't know the answer tbh.

Then there is the skills people themselves have so that they can be competitive not just in a local and national labour market but a global one. The connected world not only gives you rivals thousands of miles away, but changes in technology threaten to automate professions. Everything seems to be pointing towards an overwhelming need for higher skills, but for generations our support for adult education has been poor. There have been changes to the supply of education, but to date these have mostly been adopted by the 'haves' rather than the 'have nots', which is something that needs to be overcome if leave voting communities are to have a shot. The challenge is compounded by most research suggesting these kind of core personal skills being best learned when you're young, so helping people develop them when they're older is very hard. I think Labour, as is their want, have attempted to solve it with cash, but learning allowances have been tried in the past and I'm not sure money will necessarily change mindsets. The issue is compounded by a lot of the initiatives that aim to help disadvantaged groups, both in terms of skills development but also labour market opportunities (mentoring etc.) being focused on cities rather than leave voting towns. The apprenticeship levy hasn't really worked as intended I don't think, so there is a real need for more work in this area.

You'll note that none of these things require us to leave the EU but rather to govern more effectively. I'd also love to see society as a whole get a better handle on misinformation so that the population are better informed about all manner of things. Hans Rosling has famously shown how poorly informed most of us are about all manner of things, but this is compounded when there is so much misinformation out there. Democracy fails miserably when the electorate are misinformed, so this is crucial. Personally, I'd like electoral campaigns to be strictly regulated, as consumer adverts are done so to try and prevent people being duped, yet political campaigns and statements seem to have cart blanche. I'd love to see this change and real consequences for politicians who peddle blatant lies. Ditto for the press. The fact that we need 'fact checking' websites is a sad indictment of the mess we're in.

Bit of a back of a cigarette packet, but those would be a decent start imo.

 

[Joey66]

I’m just a concerned poster Joey. I love a bit of banter, but it’s painful to see you being mauled on here day after day.

By the likes of you yes - it would be better if you stayed on subject.........

 

[Joey66]

This is a wind up isn't it Joe? You've been having us on this whole time?

This is based on calculations the UK and EU have agreed, although the final value may still change. ... Before the £39 billion sum was provisionally agreed in December last ... UK isn't required to pay a penny, though this was disputed by some ... of the current budget plan as a result of our decision to leave.

 

[Joey66]

Surprised he lasted as long as he did, but the universities minister Sam Gyimah also resigned last night.

Yes after the EU have reneged on a deal and stitched us up again for a Billion... fetch the 2nd vote on the leave gap will be greater the way the have held these negotiations - the general public are not fools.......

 

[orly]

If we leave on a no deal in March we owe them nothing as for the £39 billion I googled it and it's misleading what you have posted......
How about our share of a divorce bill over the last 45 years where we are and always been in deficit every year ?....
So if you divorce your wife she gets everything no so that link is inaccurate, so stop using the rhetoric of trying to make me an outer and you a remainer think that you are so superior you are not ok!
I could google and have no one knows how to break that 39 billion figure down, and I have yet to see our spineless MPs just accept it without explanation the legal framework for Mays proposed divorce has got lost the white paper was supposed to be produced a month ago Bruce not googled.......

@COYBL25 we need to stage an INTERVENTION

INTERVENTION INTERVENTION INTERVENTION

*encircles @Joey66 in loving frandely arms and holds him tight*

 

[edge]

I don't know about the future, but in these threads in the past, there seems to be a nexus around change and being able to adapt sufficiently to it. This could be changes in the makeup of communities as a result of migration, or it could be changes in the economic structure of a region as a result of globalisation or technological change. Of course, one approach could be to try and pull up the drawbridge and take a protectionist approach to change, but I don't think that's either wise or sustainable, so we have to help people and communities to adapt (imo).

On the first, it's been said numerous times that the EU provides a fund to help communities cope with changes in their population, but the UK government don't use it. There has been no suggestion to date that this will change, nor that power will be decentralised to give local authorities the powers they need to adapt. This could cover everything from planning regulations to schools and health spending. Britain is one of the most centralised countries in the western world, and achieving real and tangible devolution of powers would be a good start. There has also been a lot of bluster about 'fixing' the housing market, but it has largely been just that, bluster. @abelard favourite publication the Economist have long banged the drum for a land value tax to replace all other property taxes (including stamp duty), and this is one of the few areas I agree with the Labour manifesto on, as I believe they also advocate it.

Infrastructure is another area that Labour are planning to spend heavily on, but imo this is a more complex issue. If you look globally, most of the transformative stuff is happening in cities, due in large part to the scale they give. Large(r) communities have not only larger labour markets but also larger markets to sell whatever is made locally, therefore helping businesses get off the ground. This is especially so when those communities have well renowned universities that act as a magnet for talent from around the world. The Labour argument seems to be to invest in the infrastructure that connects cities outside of London, but will that help the (leave voting) Bolton's and Oldham's of the world, or will it make it easier for (remain voting) Manchester to suck in people from further afield? I don't know the answer tbh.

Then there is the skills people themselves have so that they can be competitive not just in a local and national labour market but a global one. The connected world not only gives you rivals thousands of miles away, but changes in technology threaten to automate professions. Everything seems to be pointing towards an overwhelming need for higher skills, but for generations our support for adult education has been poor. There have been changes to the supply of education, but to date these have mostly been adopted by the 'haves' rather than the 'have nots', which is something that needs to be overcome if leave voting communities are to have a shot. The challenge is compounded by most research suggesting these kind of core personal skills being best learned when you're young, so helping people develop them when they're older is very hard. I think Labour, as is their want, have attempted to solve it with cash, but learning allowances have been tried in the past and I'm not sure money will necessarily change mindsets. The issue is compounded by a lot of the initiatives that aim to help disadvantaged groups, both in terms of skills development but also labour market opportunities (mentoring etc.) being focused on cities rather than leave voting towns. The apprenticeship levy hasn't really worked as intended I don't think, so there is a real need for more work in this area.

You'll note that none of these things require us to leave the EU but rather to govern more effectively. I'd also love to see society as a whole get a better handle on misinformation so that the population are better informed about all manner of things. Hans Rosling has famously shown how poorly informed most of us are about all manner of things, but this is compounded when there is so much misinformation out there. Democracy fails miserably when the electorate are misinformed, so this is crucial. Personally, I'd like electoral campaigns to be strictly regulated, as consumer adverts are done so to try and prevent people being duped, yet political campaigns and statements seem to have cart blanche. I'd love to see this change and real consequences for politicians who peddle blatant lies. Ditto for the press. The fact that we need 'fact checking' websites is a sad indictment of the mess we're in.

Bit of a back of a cigarette packet, but those would be a decent start imo.

good post Bruce, a reasoned reply to a question, something that has taken a hammering in this thread the last week or Two.

 

[Joey66]

I did not and never would back the likes of Gove or Johnson, i wanted out for my own reason's which i have put on here repeatedly , not that i have any say in it like the rest of us in real terms.
The strategy for leaving a mutually beneficial trade deal , each other citizens respected if the choose to reside in there chosen country, its not that hard to understand most of the world, get by with deals between each other without the rest of the trapping of a deal with the EU seems to involve , mostly because the people doing the deal have never wanted to leave anyway from day one , from May to most of parliament and the civil service, and have endeavoured to keep us as closely bound as possible without appearing to out two fingers up to voters.
Its turned into a joke we will not leave , it will end up with a second vote and the likes of myself and millions of other will say whats the point its been fixed always has been from day one.
What will not go away is the feeling that the establishment needs to be given a kicking in the future, I hope its by voting with a radical Labour government the likes of this country hasn't seen since the end second world war , but fear it might go to the first populist that taps into the well of discontent that exists in this country.
ok lets turn the tables what will be done will be done to stop the resentment that leave areas felt , when the wanted out , what are your plans for that in the future?

They put it to the people -they did not like the vote outcome -they now they have a deal after 2 years PLUS that they know will not win - it's called two finger to democrocy to the people of the UK if remain had won by that margin this thread would not be running we would have stayed in the EU........

 

[Joey66]

@COYBL25 we need to stage an INTERVENTION

INTERVENTION INTERVENTION INTERVENTION

*encircles @Joey66 in loving frandely arms and holds him tight*

Please stay on subject..... this is getting tiring and silly and a mod is just letting it happen.......

 

[orchard]

I did not and never would back the likes of Gove or Johnson, i wanted out for my own reason's which i have put on here repeatedly , not that i have any say in it like the rest of us in real terms.
The strategy for leaving a mutually beneficial trade deal , each other citizens respected if the choose to reside in there chosen country, its not that hard to understand most of the world, get by with deals between each other without the rest of the trapping of a deal with the EU seems to involve , mostly because the people doing the deal have never wanted to leave anyway from day one , from May to most of parliament and the civil service, and have endeavoured to keep us as closely bound as possible without appearing to out two fingers up to voters.
Its turned into a joke we will not leave , it will end up with a second vote and the likes of myself and millions of other will say whats the point its been fixed always has been from day one.
What will not go away is the feeling that the establishment needs to be given a kicking in the future, I hope its by voting with a radical Labour government the likes of this country hasn't seen since the end second world war , but fear it might go to the first populist that taps into the well of discontent that exists in this country.
ok lets turn the tables what will be done will be done to stop the resentment that leave areas felt , when the wanted out , what are your plans for that in the future?

The tories have only really offered the neo - Thatcher Trojan horse option (May's is a compromised form of this). From the outset they were only interested in how they and some of their donors could capitalise from Brexit, which is pretty much more of what caused the majority of Leave voters to do what they did in the first place.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Why is it a reasonable assumption to believe that people who campaigned to remain

Because he called the referendum Bruce! For God's sake man why is that so difficult to accept?! He called the referendum for political gain and therefore should of had a contingency plan for the vote going either way. He should of thought the whole thing through a good deal more thoroughly then he did.

Why did it have to be a simple leave or remain option? Why did he not create a comprehensive referendum with an many options as needed were everyone both leave and remain had to lay out their plans/manifestos, the electorate who could then vote accordingly and the two votes that got the highest margin would then be put back to the people for a second vote? Why could he not of said the winning vote had to carry high enough percentage to be enacted? Why not that all four home nations had to agree?

These are just a few things that I've thought of on the fly. Why in God's name did the Prime Minister who carries the highest power in the land not give any thought to this?!

How can you possibly excuse such breathtaking incompetence?! You wouldn't be defending idiocy like this in any other circumstances but because he was a a remainer all is forgiven? Remain = good and Leave = bad seems to be the order of the day to a large section of voters and it's just a very childish way to view things imo.