Current Affairs EU In or Out

[edge]

Maybe so, but I have politely asked you what this vision of the UK post Brexit will be. Its a fair chance I might have missed it to be fair, so what exactly do you foresee? And what gives you the assurance that it can be delivered?

Even if he set out his vision, how could he give assurances that it can be delivered without knowing the details of any deal or if indeed it fitted into his vision of brexit at all?
It would be like asking you for assurances that the EU will be better in the coming years if we stayed in.
While dealing with the Italian crisis, eastern European disquiet, the German banking problems the reaction of the USA and Russia to the Euro army and so on,
Could you or any of the others baiting him give us assurances on that?
i suspect not , if you can your wasted on here
Poor show , the last few days in regards to @Joey66
not shown GOT up very well at all singling a poster out for constant baiting whatever your views on brexit .

 

[Tubey]

Can you perhaps give us some substance on how we will grow within the EU, or even be more secure. Some substance, anything really will do......

The UK’s growth has exceeded the US while tracking it, even since the crisis of 2008. This makes it hard to argue that the EU is dragging the UK down. Alternatively, compare this to the UK’s performance during the “glory days” of the Empire from 1872 to 1914. Back then Britain’s per capita growth was only 0.9% per year, in contrast to its robust 2.1% since joining the EU.

An important bonus is that the benefits of growth in Britain have been divided much more fairly than in the US. Statistics compiled by the Institute for New Economic Thinking show that Since 1974, median income in the UK grew by 79%, in contrast to 16% for the US. Thus, Britain has had the best of both worlds while a member of the EU -- not just strong growth, but more equal growth.

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

Odd - it's almost like being part of the 2nd largest economy in the world has been beneficial somehow. Strange.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I read the article Bruce. Another German company CEO complaining about Brexit and telling us what the Germans think of it. What did you think the article really said. Did it tell you about the growth that will come from being in the EU, in fact did it tell you anything about being in the EU ?.......

Well yes, he said that his commercial life would be easier if Britain was in the EU than if it wasn't. You and others have banged the 'trading with the world' drum, but the vast majority of the companies that would do that trading don't seem to agree with your prognosis.

There seems to be a bit of a bullying trend on here, which I find disappointing. It’s just a conversation thread, perhaps people can try and see the other side before jumping in mob handed, and maybe treat each other with at least a little bit of respect......

If you're getting wound up by whether someone puts a @ in front of your name Pete, then I really don't know. It would seem to me a nice mark of respect if people would actually do the courtesy of answering questions people ask of them. As you (in the royal sense) never fail to remind us, leave won the referendum, yet there has been practically no attempts made to showcase how this will benefit our lives, either from official leave supporters, the government or you guys on this thread. Yet when people say that's bloody poor, you throw your hands up. What do you expect?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Can you perhaps give us some substance on how we will grow within the EU, or even be more secure. Some substance, anything really will do......

Well, on that trading with the world thing that people bang on about, since we voted to leave, the EU have signed deals with Japan and Canada. We've signed bugger all, so that's 2-0 to them I'd say.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Even if he set out his vision, how could he give assurances that it can be delivered without knowing the details of any deal or if indeed it fitted into his vision of brexit at all?
It would be like asking you for assurances that the EU will be better in the coming years if we stayed in.
While dealing with the Italian crisis, eastern European disquiet, the German banking problems the reaction of the USA and Russia to the Euro army and so on,
Could you or any of the others baiting him give us assurances on that?
i suspect not , if you can your wasted on here
Poor show , the last few days in regards to @Joey66
not shown GOT up very well at all singling a poster out for constant baiting whatever your views on brexit .

This is the thing, with the possible exception of those here who have actually been party to the discussions around Brexit, most of us are about as informed on this as we are on football, so our individual opinions aren't really worth much as we lack the information. The thing is, there are people out there who have much better information and so can have a much more informed stab at these things, which is why people cite other sources.

This could be business leaders who have the power to invest/divest resources. It could be academics or economists who devote their lives to understanding issues, ranging from migration to trade deals. I can't vouch for others, but if Joe had brought to the table that kind of input, then I, and I suspect others, would have listened wholeheartedly. But that hasn't happened, and so people who are concerned that this is a monumental balls up are concerned, and their backs are up when that concern is dismissed with platitudes, because it's hard not to assume that if people can't explain things in more than a few sentences, then things really haven't been thought through at all.

I'm sorry if this upsets people, but the ball really is in your (royal you) court on this one.

 

[Joey66]

Even if he set out his vision, how could he give assurances that it can be delivered without knowing the details of any deal or if indeed it fitted into his vision of brexit at all?
It would be like asking you for assurances that the EU will be better in the coming years if we stayed in.
While dealing with the Italian crisis, eastern European disquiet, the German banking problems the reaction of the USA and Russia to the Euro army and so on,
Could you or any of the others baiting him give us assurances on that?
i suspect not , if you can your wasted on here
Poor show , the last few days in regards to @Joey66
not shown GOT up very well at all singling a poster out for constant baiting whatever your views on brexit .

Thanks for that and having the decency to link the @ to my name - I accept different views but to mention some poster and not use that link is like being two faced imo .........
keeping off this thread for a while now like @Old Blue 2 it seems a little one sided and not really sensible debate - thanks for support from you and @peteblue

 

[edge]

Well, on that trading with the world thing that people bang on about, since we voted to leave, the EU have signed deals with Japan and Canada. We've signed bugger all, so that's 2-0 to them I'd say.

we cant sign any deals till we leave as you well know Bruce cheap shot your better than that.

 

[Joey66]

This is the thing, with the possible exception of those here who have actually been party to the discussions around Brexit, most of us are about as informed on this as we are on football, so our individual opinions aren't really worth much as we lack the information. The thing is, there are people out there who have much better information and so can have a much more informed stab at these things, which is why people cite other sources.

This could be business leaders who have the power to invest/divest resources. It could be academics or economists who devote their lives to understanding issues, ranging from migration to trade deals. I can't vouch for others, but if Joe had brought to the table that kind of input, then I, and I suspect others, would have listened wholeheartedly. But that hasn't happened, and so people who are concerned that this is a monumental balls up are concerned, and their backs are up when that concern is dismissed with platitudes, because it's hard not to assume that if people can't explain things in more than a few sentences, then things really haven't been thought through at all.

I'm sorry if this upsets people, but the ball really is in your (royal you) court on this one.

So you just Google Bruce to your heart's content to try to win a point its the not tagging that gets me annoyed many times I have mentioned this.....
It really is annoying from you imo you should know better... or are you so superior?........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

we cant sign any deals till we leave as you well know Bruce cheap shot your better than that.

Well yes, that is indeed true (although quite why David Davies made a big song and dance about us being able to do just that is therefore beyond me), but the fact remains that the EU have signed two trade deals with two very large economies whilst Britain has signed none. So that alone is reason why we'd be better off in (right now) than out, which is what Pete asked.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So you just Google Bruce to your heart's content to try to win a point its the not tagging that gets me annoyed many times I have mentioned this.....
It really is annoying from you imo you should know better... or are you so superior?........

I try and have an informed opinion wherever possible Joe, yes. I'll gladly accept that in much of life, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and whilst you may have the same broad aim, you have different ways of going about it. That seems perfectly fine to me, and we can debate that.

With Brexit however, not only is it unclear what the aim is (and I don't count nonsensical twaddle like 'taking back control'), but we have had no inclination as to how a better future for Britain may materialise, which is perhaps not surprising as no one has a clue what it is we're actually trying to achieve.

Re the superior comment, if I went to the doctor armed with whatever twaddle I'd read on Google, I would gladly accept that she probably knows a lot more than me. Her medical knowledge would be superior, and that's okay, she's spent an awfully long time learning that stuff and got a lot of experience practising it.

The situation we have here is akin to you not only dismissing the people that have read a bit on Google, but also dismissing the doctors who have spent years and years studying this stuff, just because you don't like what they tell you, then you complain that they're acting superior to you. For all our disagreements on here, I'm glad you didn't take that attitude with your recent health issues so you can still be around here to enjoy these jousts.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I read the article Bruce. Another German company CEO complaining about Brexit and telling us what the Germans think of it. What did you think the article really said. Did it tell you about the growth that will come from being in the EU, in fact did it tell you anything about being in the EU ?.......

It's perhaps also worth repeating Pete that that German company CEO is a British lifelong Tory supporter who says he can no longer vote for them as they no longer support business.

 

[edge]

Well yes, that is indeed true (although quite why David Davies made a big song and dance about us being able to do just that is therefore beyond me), but the fact remains that the EU have signed two trade deals with two very large economies whilst Britain has signed none. So that alone is reason why we'd be better off in (right now) than out, which is what Pete asked.

we or should i say UK business has just done billion pound deals with China thanks to a trade show hardly a mention, i think they are aware we are leaving the EU,
Argentina had agricultural people over here two weeks ago also,
You are completely correct in saying none of us know to full picture.
right now are we better off in or out?
well if what we are currently hearing the deal is , i would honestly say we would be better off in, than half in half out.
would i want a hard brexit , although my personal wishes are to leave, i dont think its either parties interest to do that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

we or should i say UK business has just done billion pound deals with China thanks to a trade show hardly a mention, i think they are aware we are leaving the EU,
Argentina had agricultural people over here two weeks ago also,
You are completely correct in saying none of us know to full picture.
right now are we better off in or out?
well if what we are currently hearing the deal is , i would honestly say we would be better off in, than half in half out.
would i want a hard brexit , although my personal wishes are to leave, i dont think its either parties interest to do that.

You'll always have a willing home for that kind of news here. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-firms-secure-2-billion-of-deals-at-expo-in-shanghai is the release from the horse's mouth.

This kind of thing has always been going on, and it's a bit of a misnomer as there's a perception that our firms can't trade outside the EU because of EU membership, when of course that's been always possible. When I was working with the department of business, there were bodies like the UK India Business Council to promote trade with India, and similar bodies for Asia and the Commonwealth, so these kind of things have always happened.

What seems increasingly the case however, certainly with regards to digital companies, is that those who grow to a huge size tend to have a huge domestic market to work with before they trade overseas. With the best will in the world, the UK doesn't offer that any more than individual European nations do, hence the appeal of the single market, as it, in theory at least, gives British startups a 'domestic' market comparable in size to the US, if not perhaps China and India. Now you could argue, with justification, that this hasn't quite worked out like that, but I'm not sure we'll be any better off for jettisoning the concept.

 

[Joey66]

I try and have an informed opinion wherever possible Joe, yes. I'll gladly accept that in much of life, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and whilst you may have the same broad aim, you have different ways of going about it. That seems perfectly fine to me, and we can debate that.

With Brexit however, not only is it unclear what the aim is (and I don't count nonsensical twaddle like 'taking back control'), but we have had no inclination as to how a better future for Britain may materialise, which is perhaps not surprising as no one has a clue what it is we're actually trying to achieve.

Re the superior comment, if I went to the doctor armed with whatever twaddle I'd read on Google, I would gladly accept that she probably knows a lot more than me. Her medical knowledge would be superior, and that's okay, she's spent an awfully long time learning that stuff and got a lot of experience practising it.

The situation we have here is akin to you not only dismissing the people that have read a bit on Google, but also dismissing the doctors who have spent years and years studying this stuff, just because you don't like what they tell you, then you complain that they're acting superior to you. For all our disagreements on here, I'm glad you didn't take that attitude with your recent health issues so you can still be around here to enjoy these jousts.

Do you have to be so condescending Bruce?
really you do hit below the belt sometimes the days of having a bit of banter with you seem to be over - Brexit is in a right old mess I admit that , but the way you and others on this thread act is not in the spirit of the GOT imo - yes we are on opposite side but anything you write about a poster to not tag them as you put it should be outlawed ......
you even use my bad health against me in your post - I enjoy banter but when it becomes ridicule that's a different matter...... you called me an idiot once I did not report you another poster did -
I always have had banter with you Bruce but lately its changed imo....

 

[edge]

This is the thing, with the possible exception of those here who have actually been party to the discussions around Brexit, most of us are about as informed on this as we are on football, so our individual opinions aren't really worth much as we lack the information. The thing is, there are people out there who have much better information and so can have a much more informed stab at these things, which is why people cite other sources.

This could be business leaders who have the power to invest/divest resources. It could be academics or economists who devote their lives to understanding issues, ranging from migration to trade deals. I can't vouch for others, but if Joe had brought to the table that kind of input, then I, and I suspect others, would have listened wholeheartedly. But that hasn't happened, and so people who are concerned that this is a monumental balls up are concerned, and their backs are up when that concern is dismissed with platitudes, because it's hard not to assume that if people can't explain things in more than a few sentences, then things really haven't been thought through at all.

I'm sorry if this upsets people, but the ball really is in your (royal you) court on this one.

Bruce i cant speak for others but i have always put my reasons for wanting brexit out there and replied when asked to explain them as best as i can.
We have had many a discussion on here together, both as far as i can recall neither has willingly just ignored anything the other has to say, maybe a bit of prodding each other for a bit of banter now and again , but always with a bit of respect,
i honestly dont think @Joey66 has been getting that the last few days .
He hasn't been well of late and i know it might not be meant as bullying , but it is obviously getting to him at a time when he more than likely isnt up to it not nice to see mate in my view.