Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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It's an almost schizophrenic situation isn't it? On the one hand you've got Brexiteers banging on about the importance of 'trading with the world' and this being a major reason for leaving the EU, whilst on the other hand Brexiteers have a go at businesses that do 'trade with the world' when they have the temerity to suggest that Brexit is a crap idea.
It only appears so due to the discrepancy between what the Con's say for headlines and the ideology that they make manifest below the surface. Monbiot (love him or hate him) brings it out quite well and demonstrates briefly that it's not new. After Consulting with Gove heavily, I think he's learned quite a lot from the experience and been disappointed by something, even though Gove has been shouting eco-modernist [Poor language removed] from the roof-tops.
 
They've been cuckolded by this 'will of the people' nonsense.
THANKFULLY MY MP ISN'T ONE OF THEM, HE DROVE A BUS ONCE FOR HIS DAD'S BUSINESS YOU KNOW. HIS CONSTITUENCY VOTED REMAIN AND HE QUITE RIGHTLY TOES THE TORY LINE WITHOUT QUESTION AND IGNORES THE COWARDS AROUND HERE THAT KNOW NO BETTER!
 
It's an almost schizophrenic situation isn't it? On the one hand you've got Brexiteers banging on about the importance of 'trading with the world' and this being a major reason for leaving the EU, whilst on the other hand Brexiteers have a go at businesses that do 'trade with the world' when they have the temerity to suggest that Brexit is a crap idea.

Their entire premise stands up to virtually no scrutiny though.

‘So let me get this straight, you’re deliberately going to make it harder to trade with the largest trade bloc on the planet, that’s on your doorstep, and who’s 27 markets are currently entwined with yours via complex supply chains.......in order to supposedly make it easier to trade with markets thousands of miles away......OKKKKKKK.....’

The only 2 business leaders who they seem able to wheel out to back Brexit, is that Tim bloke who runs Spoons, and that old boy who Chairs JCB, whos still patently got his arse out due to the fact he got fined millions by the EU for price fixing by having fixed dealer trade territories.
 
As an aside, there's an interesting paper published this week by the JRC on migrants and automation *FIRE UP THE 'IT'S PUBLISHED BY THE EU SO MUST BE PROPAGANDA CLAXON*

https://publications.europa.eu/en/p...0f84d-857e-11e8-ac6a-01aa75ed71a1/language-en

Long story short, they find that migrants as a whole tend to work in jobs that are at high risk of automation, but that EU migrants tend to graduate out of that state the longer they stay in a country, whereas non-EU migrants become even more at risk.

The worrying thing is that they advocate specific policies around training and welfare for migrants because of their risk status, which might be difficult to fly in the current anti-immigrant climate.
 
Their entire premise stands up to virtually no scrutiny though.

‘So let me get this straight, you’re deliberately going to make it harder to trade with the largest trade bloc on the planet, that’s on your doorstep, and who’s 27 markets are currently entwined with yours via complex supply chains.......in order to supposedly make it easier to trade with markets thousands of miles away......OKKKKKKK.....’

The only 2 business leaders who they seem able to wheel out to back Brexit, is that Tim bloke who runs Spoons, and that old boy who Chairs JCB, whos still patently got his arse out due to the fact he got fined millions by the EU for price fixing by having fixed dealer trade territories.

We had that from Pete yesterday, saying that by making it harder to travel/live/work in the 27 countries of the EU, it will somehow make it easier to travel/live/work in the other countries of the world, despite there being absolutely no indication that any other country on earth will make it easier to do so.
 
HAHAHA, DESPERATE REMOANERS PROVEN WRONG AGAIN! HE WAS HELPING WOMEN'S EQUALITY.



Arron Banks denies payment to African minister was a bribe
Brexit campaigner got to know minister while seeking a licence to mine diamonds in Lesotho
Kevin Rawlinson
Wed 25 Jul 2018 00.43 BSTLast modified on Wed 25 Jul 2018 00.46 BS
84



Arron Banks, the billionaire businessman who helped fund the pro-Brexit campaign, paid money to a minister in the government of Lesotho only weeks before the country reportedly granted him a diamond mining licence.
[....]
Asked if that was appropriate, he said: “Yes, we were doing a specific job.” He said doing so was “not corruption at all”. Banks said Masirebane was the “minister for women’s equality”, adding he did not “quite see how you link” mining and the minister’s portfolio
 
It's being used to shut down any kind of debate or dissent in parliament as Brexiteers and their supporters trot out the 'will of the people' line at every opportunity. It's an enemy of democracy.

I was brought up by a man who believed Narodnaya Volya was a positive force for democracy, so I am well aware of the shortcomings of using "the will of the people" as the premise of every argument ever.

That being said, I think it's a far more nuanced issue that deserves a bit more discussion - rather than calling those who disagree with you as cucks, or traitors.

Where does our democracy start, and where does it stop? How do we counteract the general underlying sense of helplessness and a inert sense of losing control? At what point does ensuring a steady flow of capital become more important that enacting the majority democratic will of the electorate?
 
I was brought up by a man who believed Narodnaya Volya was a positive force for democracy, so I am well aware of the shortcomings of using "the will of the people" as the premise of every argument ever.

That being said, I think it's a far more nuanced issue that deserves a bit more discussion - rather than calling those who disagree with you as cucks, or traitors.

Where does our democracy start, and where does it stop? How do we counteract the general underlying sense of helplessness and a inert sense of losing control? At what point does ensuring a steady flow of capital become more important that enacting the majority democratic will of the electorate?

Democracy doesn't give people control though does it? That is manifest quite clearly in this referendum where many millions of British citizens are living through a situation they wouldn't have chosen themselves. Democracy is a slightly larger group imposing their will on a slightly smaller group. That's one of the central arguments for small government, that it returns control to individuals, with the counter argument then being that some folk aren't able to handle that level of control without messing up or being exploited in some way. You can't really have government making a whole bunch of decisions for us, without those who disagree with what the government choose being disenfranchised.
 
Democracy doesn't give people control though does it? That is manifest quite clearly in this referendum where many millions of British citizens are living through a situation they wouldn't have chosen themselves. Democracy is a slightly larger group imposing their will on a slightly smaller group. That's one of the central arguments for small government, that it returns control to individuals, with the counter argument then being that some folk aren't able to handle that level of control without messing up or being exploited in some way. You can't really have government making a whole bunch of decisions for us, without those who disagree with what the government choose being disenfranchised.
It needs to be far less centralised.
 
Democracy doesn't give people control though does it?
I don't think this current form of democracy gives the "people" control.

That is manifest quite clearly in this referendum where many millions of British citizens are living through a situation they wouldn't have chosen themselves.

Referendum in which the options are between keeping the status quo or going down a completely different path without fulling outlining how exactly you'd do that are fundamentally flawed. We should have had never had the 2016 EU referendum in the first place, but unfortunately we did - and the government made a promise to enact the result of it.

Democracy is a slightly larger group imposing their will on a slightly smaller group.

It's still the least worse option. Believe it or not, despite my strong personal convictions I stand by the ideal that if you make cognisant decision to have all or nothing - then you'll soon find yourself resigned to nothing.

Pragmatism is vital in ensuring that the democratic process survives.

All I've seen since the EU referendum is an unwillingness for both sides to come together and find a solution that best represents the overall attitude toward it. I believe that the vast majority of the electorate accepts the result, but that doesn't mean that we should cut ourselves off entirely from the EU. The formation of a new customs union, and free trade agreement with the EU (the Labour option) looks to be the right thing going forward ~ but those on both sides snipe at them for either trying to frustrate the "will of the people"; or being too willing in enacting the referendum result.

That's one of the central arguments for small government, that it returns control to individuals, with the counter argument then being that some folk aren't able to handle that level of control without messing up or being exploited in some way. You can't really have government making a whole bunch of decisions for us, without those who disagree with what the government choose being disenfranchised.

I understand your point, and I also accept that there's a high level of contempt at the way governance is done in the UK. I actually believe in strong local governance, with central government only existing to distribute funding and work on the legislature. I've never understood how any transport minister could understand the intricacies of issues like congestion in and around town centers, or how any minister for health can define a rural health strategy better than the individuals that live in rural areas.

The entire situation is [Poor language removed].
 
I understand your point, and I also accept that there's a high level of contempt at the way governance is done in the UK. I actually believe in strong local governance, with central government only existing to distribute funding and work on the legislature. I've never understood how any transport minister could understand the intricacies of issues like congestion in and around town centers, or how any minister for health can define a rural health strategy better than the individuals that live in rural areas.

The entire situation is [Poor language removed].

Of course something else to add into the mix is the role globalisation plays.in things. As Dani Rodrik says, it's hard to have more globalisation without giving up one of either nationalism or democracy. We're seeing that play out now with a backlash of sorts against a 'global elite' in favour of national sovereignty. Even if you think globalisation is a bad thing though (which I don't in the slightest), it's a genie that will be hard to put back into the bottle. The more global society becomes, then the more natural it is to have shared rules to ensure the global system works effectively. To a large extent the EU was a manifestation of that.

It's interesting though as cultural identity plays a big part. In a practical sense, the EU is not that different in size to the US, and I'd say the 28 nations of the EU have much more power and sovereignty than the 50 states of the USA, yet we've had a backlash against the EU at the same time as nationalism in the US.
 
Of course something else to add into the mix is the role globalisation plays.in things. As Dani Rodrik says, it's hard to have more globalisation without giving up one of either nationalism or democracy. We're seeing that play out now with a backlash of sorts against a 'global elite' in favour of national sovereignty. Even if you think globalisation is a bad thing though (which I don't in the slightest), it's a genie that will be hard to put back into the bottle. The more global society becomes, then the more natural it is to have shared rules to ensure the global system works effectively. To a large extent the EU was a manifestation of that.

It's interesting though as cultural identity plays a big part. In a practical sense, the EU is not that different in size to the US, and I'd say the 28 nations of the EU have much more power and sovereignty than the 50 states of the USA, yet we've had a backlash against the EU at the same time as nationalism in the US.

Wider discussion to be had over nationalism - and what actually constitutes a nation state.

Liberty needs to be at the forefront of every choice we the people make.

Part of that is defending the principle of democracy, and its ability to achieve positive socioeconomic change, whilst also understanding its very obvious flaws and how best to mitigate them.

One of the fundamental issues we have is a cultural malaise. We no longer believe in education as a means of improving ourselves, we have become far more influenced by the temptations of materialism - and all of the short term enjoyment it gives. We no longer cast an analytical eye over issues, instead those in charge of asking these questions opt for sensationalism as it better buys into the inheret humanistic nature of tribalism - and with that comes the clicks, and the subsequent advertising revenue.

Take the recent reporting of Labour's internal anti-Semitism policies. The press widely reported that, under the new guidelines, it was acceptable for a Labour Party member to question a Jewish individuals allegiances to Britain. This was a blatent lie, and is easily disproven by reading the NEC report (obtainable by a simple Google search).

However as it both generates a wider sense of interest and provides a useful tool to use against the interests of the party and its political tendencies - it has been reported numerous times - despite having zero truth to it.

I know this is a single point, but it further proves my argument about people being unwilling to cast any sort of analytical thought to an issue, leaving to a situation in which the realities are ignored.
 
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