Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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Bruce Wayne said:
Given the stick Cameron and Osborne had for jumping ship, the Brexiteers must be pretty annoyed at Johnson and Davis for doing likewise? I mean it doesn't sound as though they practically did much in the negotiations, but still.
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Surely you can see how silly a comparrison that is Bruce? Cameron called the Referndum, he called it and did so for purely for his own short sighted political gains. He was thus responsible for the eventual outcome as it didn't even need to happen. Cameron and Osborne also held the two highest positions in the land at that time and could of done whatever they'd wanted. From ignoring the referendum completely to enacting article 50 and leaving with a "no deal" on the spot, they'd could of done either and anything else with a good deal less fuss then we've had to deal with since had they acted quickly. Cameron caused all this and it was his responsibility to resolve the matter one way or the other no matter how complex the situation.

I'm not a fan of either Johnson or Davis (particularly Johnson) but what else can they do other then quit if they feel the PM will ignore their points and go down what they consider the wrong route? If one of them was the PM and held all the powers that involves then walking away would of been just as cowardly and unforgivable as Cammeron. They don't, so it isn't.
 
Gwladysstreetlad said:
Surely you can see how silly a comparrison that is Bruce? Cameron called the Referndum, he called it and did so for purely for his own short sighted political gains. He was thus responsible for the eventual outcome as it didn't even need to happen. Cameron and Osborne also held the two highest positions in the land at that time and could of done whatever they'd wanted. From ignoring the referendum completely to enacting article 50 and leaving with a "no deal" on the spot, they'd could of done either and anything else with a good deal less fuss then we've had to deal with since had they acted quickly. Cameron caused all this and it was his responsibility to resolve the matter one way or the other no matter how complex the situation.

I'm not a fan of either Johnson or Davis (particularly Johnson) but what else can they do other then quit if they feel the PM will ignore their points and go down what they consider the wrong route? If one of them was the PM and held all the powers that involves then walking away would of been just as cowardly and unforgivable as Cammeron. They don't, so it isn't.
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Indeed.......
 
Foot Long Hot Dog said:
It doesn’t appear that way, in fact quite the reverse, they’re being held up as martyrs for the cause it seems.

The Cult of Brexit has anointed them.

The Tories risk ripping their party in two over this issue, the foot stomping Brexit extremists aren’t going to stop until they’ve pushed the nation down the path of ‘no deal’ it seems. Quite how May is going to hold them together is anyone’s guess. If I was her I’d call a GE and walk.
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60 front benchers walked out on Labour they recovered a bit.......
 
Gwladysstreetlad said:
Surely you can see how silly a comparrison that is Bruce? Cameron called the Referndum, he called it and did so for purely for his own short sighted political gains. He was thus responsible for the eventual outcome as it didn't even need to happen. Cameron and Osborne also held the two highest positions in the land at that time and could of done whatever they'd wanted. From ignoring the referendum completely to enacting article 50 and leaving with a "no deal" on the spot, they'd could of done either and anything else with a good deal less fuss then we've had to deal with since had they acted quickly. Cameron caused all this and it was his responsibility to resolve the matter one way or the other no matter how complex the situation.

I'm not a fan of either Johnson or Davis (particularly Johnson) but what else can they do other then quit if they feel the PM will ignore their points and go down what they consider the wrong route? If one of them was the PM and held all the powers that involves then walking away would of been just as cowardly and unforgivable as Cammeron. They don't, so it isn't.
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That seems a bit of a cop out to me. Davis, Johnson and Fox are in charge of the main Brexit related departments, yet they seem to have had precious little involvement in matters. Indeed, most of the chatter from Europe is that their departure is embarrassing for Britain, but of little practical importance to the negotiations as they did so little. If that is true, you have to ask the question what on earth they were doing? They were the principle architects of Brexit, in charge of the main Brexit departments of government, and appear to have been sidelined by a woman who is widely regarded as one of the most incompetent prime ministers in living memory. If they couldn't even 'negotiate' their point given so many cards stacked in their favour, why on earth should they be awarded any credibility at all?
 
Gwladysstreetlad said:
Surely you can see how silly a comparrison that is Bruce? Cameron called the Referndum, he called it and did so for purely for his own short sighted political gains. He was thus responsible for the eventual outcome as it didn't even need to happen. Cameron and Osborne also held the two highest positions in the land at that time and could of done whatever they'd wanted. From ignoring the referendum completely to enacting article 50 and leaving with a "no deal" on the spot, they'd could of done either and anything else with a good deal less fuss then we've had to deal with since had they acted quickly. Cameron caused all this and it was his responsibility to resolve the matter one way or the other no matter how complex the situation.

I'm not a fan of either Johnson or Davis (particularly Johnson) but what else can they do other then quit if they feel the PM will ignore their points and go down what they consider the wrong route? If one of them was the PM and held all the powers that involves then walking away would of been just as cowardly and unforgivable as Cammeron. They don't, so it isn't.
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Everything Johnson does is about what’s best for Johnson. He’s not done this in some courageous act of self sacrifice to protect his ‘principles’, as the fraud spoke about how we should retain Single Market access literally months before he took the reigns of Leave, which he did solely for the purposes of self advancement.

Davis is different as he’s felt undermined and that he didn’t believe in the plan he was supposed to be responsible for implementing. So him walking I can get, albeit I don’t see why he signed the paper on the Friday, as for me he’d have had more credibility if he walked at the Chequers meeting. As they all agreed at that point that they’d unite, him included.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That seems a bit of a cop out to me. Davis, Johnson and Fox are in charge of the main Brexit related departments, yet they seem to have had precious little involvement in matters. Indeed, most of the chatter from Europe is that their departure is embarrassing for Britain, but of little practical importance to the negotiations as they did so little. If that is true, you have to ask the question what on earth they were doing? They were the principle architects of Brexit, in charge of the main Brexit departments of government, and appear to have been sidelined by a woman who is widely regarded as one of the most incompetent prime ministers in living memory. If they couldn't even 'negotiate' their point given so many cards stacked in their favour, why on earth should they be awarded any credibility at all?
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One name Bruce Top civil servant Remainer Ollie Robbins.......sending him to negotiate has backfired on May.......
 
Joey66 said:
60 front benchers walked out on Labour they recovered a bit.......
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True enough Joey, but they were the opposition as opposed to the party in power. They’ve obviously got the 48 letters required to trigger a vote of no confidence but they’re game playing, as they know they’d be unlikely to win that vote.
 
Foot Long Hot Dog said:
Everything Johnson does is about what’s best for Johnson. He’s not done this in some courageous act of self sacrifice to protect his ‘principles’, as the fraud spoke about how we should retain Single Market access literally months before he took the reigns of Leave, which he did solely for the purposes of self advancement.

Davis is different as he’s felt undermined and that he didn’t believe in the plan he was supposed to be responsible for implementing. So him walking I can get, albeit I don’t see why he signed the paper on the Friday, as for me he’d have had more credibility if he walked at the Chequers meeting. As they all agreed at that point that they’d unite, him included.
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I agree regarding Johnson. I've never believed he was a true leaver but he saw the way the vote was going before most and wanted on on the winning side. I've next to nothing to say about Johnson that's positive. He's a snake acting purely in his own self interest but he still had no alternative then to walk away in this case. He's backed himself into a corner at this point.

I think May played on Davis's and more then a few others loyalty to her at the chequers meeting. I doubt he wants to walk away like that and stand againt her but she's left him very little alternative.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
That seems a bit of a cop out to me. Davis, Johnson and Fox are in charge of the main Brexit related departments, yet they seem to have had precious little involvement in matters. Indeed, most of the chatter from Europe is that their departure is embarrassing for Britain, but of little practical importance to the negotiations as they did so little. If that is true, you have to ask the question what on earth they were doing? They were the principle architects of Brexit, in charge of the main Brexit departments of government, and appear to have been sidelined by a woman who is widely regarded as one of the most incompetent prime ministers in living memory. If they couldn't even 'negotiate' their point given so many cards stacked in their favour, why on earth should they be awarded any credibility at all?
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I don't believe for a second that you're this naive Bruce. They aren't in charge of anything. They all answer to the PM and do what she tells them. Anything they do can be ignored and overruled on the say so of the PM. If they dont feel they can do as she says they have two alternatives. Argue with her and attempt to change the PM's mind or walk away if the first fails. The first clearly failed abysmally so what else could they do?

It doesn't matter how incompetent May is. She holds the power and is PM.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
I appreciate this is probably a silly question, but on what do you base that?
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It like having your boss asking for a pay rise, and taking in your supervisor who you have a dispute with to represent you in the workplace- the Tories slipped up appointing a remainer in May as a PM her record in the home office was dire, she was a Remainer an opportunist.......
Evidently it's been reported the Brexit secretary David Davis was sidelined in the negotiations from day one as Ollie Robbins set them up as a remainer hence the mess, and negotiations being arsp about wrong way round - as soon as we offered them the divorce payment Trade should have been no 1 on the agenda .......
Hence this mess.......
David Davis is not to blame he has come close to resigning a good few times, we now know why also far too many Remainers in her cabinet if it had been a Brexiterr Mp the cabinet should have been proportionate to the percentage of the leave vote......
Not 3/4 remainers and 7 Brexiteers ......
May has gone back on her Lancaster speech her Florence speech if the deadline was not so close she would be ousted!
 
Gwladysstreetlad said:
I don't believe for a second that you're this naive Bruce. They aren't in charge of anything. They all answer to the PM and do what she tells them. Anything they do can be ignored and overruled on the say so of the PM. If they dont feel they can do as she says they have two alternatives. Argue with her and attempt to change the PM's mind or walk away if the first fails. The first clearly failed abysmally so what else could they do?

It doesn't matter how incompetent May is. She holds the power and is PM.
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She holds the deciding vote, but to suggest they're powerless is untrue. Firstly they were leading campaigners for Brexit, so that whole will of the people nonsense is in their favour. Secondly, they headed up the Brexit-related departments, so 100% of their job was devoted to Brexit versus a much smaller proportion of May's, as she also has the NHS, defence, education etc. to worry about. Thirdly, for pretty much her entire premiership she has been branded as weak and hopeless. Indeed, many have argued that the only reason Johnson hasn't been sacked for his constant sniping is due to her weakness. The notion that she's suddenly become a Thatcher-like ball breaker seems a stretch. Last, but not least, Davis, Johnson, Fox et al campaigned for Brexit so you would hope had a vision for both what it would be, how it would benefit the country, and how it could be delivered. Their very job was to convince the country of that, and negotiate with the EU to ensure it happened. That was their job. No more, no less. The fact that they failed to even convince their own colleagues either suggests they're useless or their visions were useless.
 
Foot Long Hot Dog said:
True enough Joey, but they were the opposition as opposed to the party in power. They’ve obviously got the 48 letters required to trigger a vote of no confidence but they’re game playing, as they know they’d be unlikely to win that vote.
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Only because of Momentum and the trade union block votes if Corbyn had been ousted you would have a Labour government in power now the Tories are inmelt down and he is level in the polls.....
I will vote Labour when he and Momentum disappear......
Untill then I will not vote!
I tore up my Unite retired membership card left them , but still pay into my other not so militant trade union membership ...
 
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