Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

There’s a few issues Bruce. Certainly in Eastern Europe there is an issue about non Christians. In Western Europe I don’t believe there is the same issue, but one of how to deal with the numbers. We know that Merkel’s open door statements and the West’s involvement in Syria and Libya have driven large numbers across the Mediterranean, but it’s now widening to other parts of Africa. The ‘Dublin agreement’ countries of Italy and Greece are bearing the strain without a great deal of help from other EU nations. But this is all made worse by the EU nations and NGO’s providing a taxi service across the Mediterranean from which people smugglers are making large amounts of money. The German coalition will probably fracture over this issue, as Merkel seems incapable of admitting a mistake in throwing open the doors without full EU agreement and involvement. It’s a right mess and will cause much tension over the next four or five months........

I don't disagree with much of that Pete, but fear that the narrative used by many, especially from the extremities of politics have made rational debates incredibly difficult. It saddens me no end that there hasn't been a single politician willing to stand up and make the case for why migration is a great thing, both for the individuals themselves and their host countries. Not one, whether from left or right, has been willing to do that, and that kinda exemplifies the state of things at the moment that doing so is considered such political suicide. It's maddening, and I know you won't appreciate me saying it, but I don't think Brexit has helped things whatsoever as it was done against the backdrop of reducing immigration to ~10% of current levels and of hordes of the unwashed flocking here from Turkey. It was appalling, and preceded not just the abomination of Trump but the abominations currently in office in the Visegrad.

Thank goodness the French and Dutch stood up to be counted, but even now you sense that Joe is relishing the trouble Merkel is having, whether oblivious or not to the odious far right party that are giving her the trouble. It's like if she does get toppled and Germany veer to the extremes that he'll be saying "told you so, look at that crumbling EU - better off out" whilst OldBlue will say how Germany now resembles Hitler-era Germany and it's right we've stood up to it etc. seemingly oblivious to the role we played as the first domino to fall.

Heck, already as Trump (domino #2 if you like) batters Europe and complains about the lack of investment Germany et al make militarily, yet there are complaints on here when the EU respond by suggesting upping spending on the military. Is it really so hard to see how these things are connected?

 

[Number_25]

I've been reading this thread for the past 3 weeks, and the conversation seems to be recursive - as it has been since the referendum throughout the vast majority of politically engaged online communities.

Whether you like it or not, we're leaving the European Union. There's no political will to 'overturn' the result, nor should there - regardless of whatever third party involvement there might have been.

I see Brexit as a fundamental failure of progressive left-leaning people to put out a coherent argument that's comprehensively pro-immigrant and anti-exploitation. The New Labour project did nothing to counteract the belief that immigrants come here and "take our jobs, housing, and hospital places" - only further compounding it through negative rhetoric on asylum seekers (if you remember, an issue that was endemic in early-mid 2000s political discourse).

The simple fact of the matter is that a very large section of the working class have seen their communities destroyed over the past 30 or so years - and people want change. We must honor that.

The fight should revolve around the implementation of a emergency brake on EU-based immigration, in an attempt to stem the mass-public outcry surrounding it.

We need to fight to retain many of the laws and regulations the EU has gifted us.

We need to talk to the people of Scotland and offer them radical change into how we govern ourselves. We need to look at federalising the United Kingdom, and in doing so empower communities to better themselves through the extension of local politics into something substantial; and not just about bin collections.

 

[peteblue]

I don't disagree with much of that Pete, but fear that the narrative used by many, especially from the extremities of politics have made rational debates incredibly difficult. It saddens me no end that there hasn't been a single politician willing to stand up and make the case for why migration is a great thing, both for the individuals themselves and their host countries. Not one, whether from left or right, has been willing to do that, and that kinda exemplifies the state of things at the moment that doing so is considered such political suicide. It's maddening, and I know you won't appreciate me saying it, but I don't think Brexit has helped things whatsoever as it was done against the backdrop of reducing immigration to ~10% of current levels and of hordes of the unwashed flocking here from Turkey. It was appalling, and preceded not just the abomination of Trump but the abominations currently in office in the Visegrad.

Thank goodness the French and Dutch stood up to be counted, but even now you sense that Joe is relishing the trouble Merkel is having, whether oblivious or not to the odious far right party that are giving her the trouble. It's like if she does get toppled and Germany veer to the extremes that he'll be saying "told you so, look at that crumbling EU - better off out" whilst OldBlue will say how Germany now resembles Hitler-era Germany and it's right we've stood up to it etc. seemingly oblivious to the role we played as the first domino to fall.

Heck, already as Trump (domino #2 if you like) batters Europe and complains about the lack of investment Germany et al make militarily, yet there are complaints on here when the EU respond by suggesting upping spending on the military. Is it really so hard to see how these things are connected?

I've been reading this thread for the past 3 weeks, and the conversation seems to be recursive - as it has been since the referendum throughout the vast majority of politically engaged online communities.

Whether you like it or not, we're leaving the European Union. There's no political will to 'overturn' the result, nor should there - regardless of whatever third party involvement there might have been.

I see Brexit as a fundamental failure of progressive left-leaning people to put out a coherent argument that's comprehensively pro-immigrant and anti-exploitation. The New Labour project did nothing to counteract the belief that immigrants come here and "take our jobs, housing, and hospital places" - only further compounding it through negative rhetoric on asylum seekers (if you remember, an issue that was endemic in early-mid 2000s political discourse).

The simple fact of the matter is that a very large section of the working class have seen their communities destroyed over the past 30 or so years - and people want change. We must honor that.

The fight should revolve around the implementation of a emergency brake on EU-based immigration, in an attempt to stem the mass-public outcry surrounding it.

We need to fight to retain many of the laws and regulations the EU has gifted us.

We need to talk to the people of Scotland and offer them radical change into how we govern ourselves. We need to look at federalising the United Kingdom, and in doing so empower communities to better themselves through the extension of local politics into something substantial; and not just about bin collections.

I think both of these will be discussed and addressed in detail over the coming years.

As I’ve previously said, I have no problem with immigration, controlled immigration, we have a very diverse culture in the U.K. that is perhaps the envy of many in Europe. It is uncontrolled immigration that winds people up, as indeed it is now doing in Germany to the benefit of far right groups. The U.K. will I believe clamp down on some EU immigration and open up RoW immigration for the people with the skills that we will require. I’m not so sure about the French standing up to be counted as they have taken a very hard line with Italy, saying all the right things while ensuring the border between the two remains closed.

In respect of rules and regulations and the make up of the U.K., revamping the HoL etc etc, I’m sure that this will form a large part of future political debate. However, we must make sure that first and foremost we make a success of Brexit and raise our eyes outwards for trade and not tie ourselves in knots about which political grouping has responsibility for fish...

 

[Seanjd]

I think both of these will be discussed and addressed in detail over the coming years.

As I’ve previously said, I have no problem with immigration, controlled immigration, we have a very diverse culture in the U.K. that is perhaps the envy of many in Europe. It is uncontrolled immigration that winds people up, as indeed it is now doing in Germany to the benefit of far right groups. The U.K. will I believe clamp down on some EU immigration and open up RoW immigration for the people with the skills that we will require. I’m not so sure about the French standing up to be counted as they have taken a very hard line with Italy, saying all the right things while ensuring the border between the two remains closed.

In respect of rules and regulations and the make up of the U.K., revamping the HoL etc etc, I’m sure that this will form a large part of future political debate. However, we must make sure that first and foremost we make a success of Brexit and raise our eyes outwards for trade and not tie ourselves in knots about which political grouping has responsibility for fish...

The message needs to be put out there that immigration has, on the whole, been incredibly beneficial to the UK. I think the discussion around 'controlling' immigration is counter-productive and adds to the general feeling in this country that immigration is a bad thing which has to be further controlled. My view is that it doesn't. We are heading towards a very closed world.

 

[Joey66]

The message needs to be put out there that immigration has, on the whole, been incredibly beneficial to the UK. I think the discussion around 'controlling' immigration is counter-productive and adds to the general feeling in this country that immigration is a bad thing which has to be further controlled. My view is that it doesn't. We are heading towards a very closed world.

Why is controlled imigration a dirty word?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think both of these will be discussed and addressed in detail over the coming years.

As I’ve previously said, I have no problem with immigration, controlled immigration, we have a very diverse culture in the U.K. that is perhaps the envy of many in Europe. It is uncontrolled immigration that winds people up, as indeed it is now doing in Germany to the benefit of far right groups. The U.K. will I believe clamp down on some EU immigration and open up RoW immigration for the people with the skills that we will require. I’m not so sure about the French standing up to be counted as they have taken a very hard line with Italy, saying all the right things while ensuring the border between the two remains closed.

In respect of rules and regulations and the make up of the U.K., revamping the HoL etc etc, I’m sure that this will form a large part of future political debate. However, we must make sure that first and foremost we make a success of Brexit and raise our eyes outwards for trade and not tie ourselves in knots about which political grouping has responsibility for fish...

I don't doubt you Pete, but given the huge focus on massively reducing migration from the Tory campaigners in the leave camp, and the obvious focus on it from the UKIP campaigners, you have to surely concede that a great many leave voters would be mightily annoyed if migration increased in the future, controlled or not. I just can't see that being right. I've also questioned numerous times in this thread the ability of the/a government to manage migration effectively. We've effectively run a randomized control trial for the last decade between managed (RoW) and un-managed migration, and on pretty much any metric you care to mention, from education, employment, crime rates etc. those from the un-managed part do better. If the evidence suggests that not managing it does a lot better than managing it, I fail to see where this notion that the government are the best arbiters comes from.

 

[Chewbacca]

Can we do controlled emigration?

I have a list.

 

[peteblue]

I love the way that it’s only France and Germany that decides......

The French and German governments have been discussing the big issues for the Eurozone and will meet again this week with Juncker in attendance.

“The French and German governments will meet in Meseberg on Tuesday. They’ll discuss migration, security and defense, innovation and the “further development of the economic and monetary union.”

“There will be no agreement if there isn’t a general agreement on all parts of the proposal.” Merkel, in her weekly podcast, announced that “answers to four big challenges, Franco-German answers,” will be discussed with the rest of Europe.

And the Irish, et al, still believe that they have a voice that will be listened to........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I love the way that it’s only France and Germany that decides......

The French and German governments have been discussing the big issues for the Eurozone and will meet again this week with Juncker in attendance.

“The French and German governments will meet in Meseberg on Tuesday. They’ll discuss migration, security and defense, innovation and the “further development of the economic and monetary union.”

“There will be no agreement if there isn’t a general agreement on all parts of the proposal.” Merkel, in her weekly podcast, announced that “answers to four big challenges, Franco-German answers,” will be discussed with the rest of Europe.

And the Irish, et al, still believe that they have a voice that will be listened to........

Once again Pete, there seems to be a confusion in the approach, usually depending on the issue but often it seems just on the day of the week. Sometimes you'll have people like Boris, but also many on here, saying the EU is sclerotic because small, 'insignificant' places, can slow proceedings, whilst at other times you'll have people, like yourself above, suggesting it's all a Franco-German stitch up and they plough through whatever they want.

It can't be both, can it?

 

[peteblue]

Once again Pete, there seems to be a confusion in the approach, usually depending on the issue but often it seems just on the day of the week. Sometimes you'll have people like Boris, but also many on here, saying the EU is sclerotic because small, 'insignificant' places, can slow proceedings, whilst at other times you'll have people, like yourself above, suggesting it's all a Franco-German stitch up and they plough through whatever they want.

It can't be both, can it?

I’ve always said it was a Franco-German stitch up, but they don’t even bother to hide it anymore........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I’ve always said it was a Franco-German stitch up, but they don’t even bother to hide it anymore........

You may have done, but many in the leave camp think very differently, including several on here. It kinda underlines the fact that there isn't One Brexit To Rule Them All that can be fulfilled by simplistic Brexit means Brexit nonsense.

 

[Seanjd]

Why is controlled imigration a dirty word?

Because it’s a euphemism for reduced immigration, which I don’t think is needed.

 

[roydo]

Because it’s a euphemism for reduced immigration, which I don’t think is needed.

Its also a euphemism for the "type" of folk some dont want coming over. Make your own mind up by what I mean by "type" of people.

 

[edge]

Its also a euphemism for the "type" of folk some dont want coming over. Make your own mind up by what I mean by "type" of people.

Scottish ?

 

[Joey66]

Because it’s a euphemism for reduced immigration, which I don’t think is needed.

Over 1/2 a million coming in.....