Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ruairi77 said:
If you voted to leave, you were voting to change the status quo. Even though the leave campaign were not in government, surely it was their responsibility to lay out a plan for how all this would happen if they won.
What you're telling me here is that the government provided no framework for leaving because they were incompetent, The leave campaign provided no framework for what would happen because they weren't the government.
So no one put forward a framework for how to leave the EU
But, rather than say, let's vote on this when there are reasonable plans in place and and available to the public, you took a chance that it would all work out fine.
In essence, you gambled with a lot of other peoples chips.
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Ruairi,
I've mentioned this before.
You must separate the referendum campaign from the day-to-day workings of the machinery of Government.
The issue of whether to remain or leave was not 'party-political', but rather across party lines. Neither side of the campaign had any 'clout' in so far as formulating future policy. Their role was simply to campaign. As I have posted previously (recently, within the last day or so), the outcome of the vote would then be taken up by the Government of the day to run with.
So the campaign and the implementation post-vote were two separate and distinct things. In other words, the leave campaign could not say to the Government: You must do 'A', 'B', 'C'. Both campaigns DID NOT have a remit to provide a framework for anything. Both campaigns ceased to exist at the close of the polling stations on 23rd June last year. Everything after that was in the hands of the Government.

And no one gambled with a lot of people's chips. The question was put to the country (UK), and the people responded.
 
Old Blue 2 said:
Ruairi,
I've mentioned this before.
You must separate the referendum campaign from the day-to-day workings of the machinery of Government.
The issue of whether to remain or leave was not 'party-political', but rather across party lines. Neither side of the campaign had any 'clout' in so far as formulating future policy. Their role was simply to campaign. As I have posted previously (recently, within the last day or so), the outcome of the vote would then be taken up by the Government of the day to run with.
So the campaign and the implementation post-vote were two separate and distinct things. In other words, the leave campaign could not say to the Government: You must do 'A', 'B', 'C'. Both campaigns DID NOT have a remit to provide a framework for anything. Both campaigns ceased to exist at the close of the polling stations on 23rd June last year. Everything after that was in the hands of the Government.

And no one gambled with a lot of people's chips. The question was put to the country (UK), and the people responded.
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That's all fair enough, You're right, they were campaigns, they didn't have to, I just assumed it would have helped the leave campaign to lay out how it though the process might look.
I know it's been covered a lot but in the run up to the vote I commented a lot on here (in the ale house) about the distinct lack of a plan for how to deal with the Belfast agreement and the land border (my area of interest as it's where I'm from). There was no sensible plan, there still isn't.
It wasn't the leave campaigns responsibility to provide a plan for how to leave but, in my opinion, to vote leave without a reasonable plan in place was irresponsible, like I said, letting your heart rule your head.
 
Gwladysstreetlad said:
Firstly the bold bit. You said it and you are correct.

Secondly you mention the idea of manifestos for leave side. I think that would of been a great idea for the referendum if we'd of had several different options with all those manifestos and the goverment was obliged to follow the course of the winner. Unfortunately Cameron didn't think of that when he announced the referendum because he never dreamed we'd vote out. I just don't understand why your so reluctant to not blame the person who is completely and utterly responsible for this entire episode.
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Why is it Cameron's responsibility to pitch for both sides? He wanted to remain, so the 'manifesto' for that is quite clear - it's what we already have. A duty was on those who wanted to change things to say what change meant, and how that would be delivered. Even if the plans were largely theoretical, it would still have given an idea into their thinking and given people both something to vote for, and something to hold the government to account against afterwards.

Cameron will undoubtedly go down in history as succumbing to the Eurosceptics in his own party and selling the country a turkey. He quite probably regrets doing the whole thing, and whilst the government should undoubtedly have planned for both eventualities, it should only have been the Leave side that would ever make their plans for a leave eventuality public. You also have to remember that Cameron et al did make a great many statements about what he thought a leave vote would mean, and this was dismissed as 'project fear' by Gove et al. Did Gove et al then flesh out why they thought it wasn't, or how a leave vote would be managed to ensure the nation thrived? Not that I've seen. Ho hum. Never mind, he wasn't in government or something.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Why is it Cameron's responsibility to pitch for both sides? He wanted to remain, so the 'manifesto' for that is quite clear - it's what we already have. A duty was on those who wanted to change things to say what change meant, and how that would be delivered. Even if the plans were largely theoretical, it would still have given an idea into their thinking and given people both something to vote for, and something to hold the government to account against afterwards.

Cameron will undoubtedly go down in history as succumbing to the Eurosceptics in his own party and selling the country a turkey. He quite probably regrets doing the whole thing, and whilst the government should undoubtedly have planned for both eventualities, it should only have been the Leave side that would ever make their plans for a leave eventuality public. You also have to remember that Cameron et al did make a great many statements about what he thought a leave vote would mean, and this was dismissed as 'project fear' by Gove et al. Did Gove et al then flesh out why they thought it wasn't, or how a leave vote would be managed to ensure the nation thrived? Not that I've seen. Ho hum. Never mind, he wasn't in government or something.
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You can't be serious?! You honestly can't see why the Prime Minister who called for the referendum in the first place (and did so purely as an underhanded, yet successful tactic to win the 2015 GE) should be held accountable regardless of the result? That is nothing short of ludicrous Bruce. Cameron called it purely for political gain and should of faced the consequences of his own actions like any other even other even half decent leader would of. The fact that he made zero contingency plans yet still called the referendum knowing full well the position he'd leave the country in, in the event of an out vote and then walked away as though he'd done nothing wrong is outrageous. He has singlehandedly devided this country in a way not seen for generation's, purely for his own selfish ends.

He wanted to remain and yet he made the most cackhanded campaign ever. His campaign consisted of scare and smear tactics and why not? Those tactics had served him well in the past haven't they? They won him two GE and the leadership of the Conservitives. He thought he could bluff his way through a fourth time but came a croppper on this one.

David Cameron will got down as one of the most incompetent fools to ever be PM (though his successor is giving him a run for his money). A charlatan who put his ego before his country and then walked away without facing the repercussions of his actions.
 
peteblue said:
David Cameron will got down as one of the most incompetent fools to ever be PM (though his successor is giving him a run for his money). A charlatan who put his ego before his country and then walked away without facing the repercussions of his actions.
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Yes - and @Bruce Wayne and others have said as much. Nobody here is defending him.

But the same is just as true of all the other Leavers, who continue to ram through the stupidest possible Brexit despite never having had the slightest idea of what it would entail or how they might actually accomplish anything.

Cameron has not been the Prime Minister in some time, and so, obviously, responsibility for the current ongoing debacle has shifted to those who are still lying through their teeth about what sort of "plans" they have, and what is likely to result.
 
abelard said:
Yes - and @Bruce Wayne and others have said as much. Nobody here is defending Brown.

But the same is just as true of all the other remainers who continue to ram through the stupidest possible arguments despite never having had the slightest idea of the opportunity that exist.

Brown has not been the Prime Minister in some time, and so, obviously, even though he made a complete arse of the country, responsibility for the current ongoing debacle has shifted to those members of the Labour Party who are still lying through their teeth about what sort of "plans" they have, and what is likely to result.
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If you’re going to quote me, please quote me properly. Changing the odd word for humorous effect is fine, just producing a completely new quote, or quoting someone else, is a bit off really.......
 
peteblue said:
If you’re going to quote me, please quote me properly. Changing the odd word for humorous effect is fine, just producing a completely new quote is a bit off really.......
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I meant to quote @Gwladysstreetlad - you'll see I have in fact quoted his last phrase. I have no idea why it lists you as the source - I hadn't even noticed until now.
 
abelard said:
Yes - and @Bruce Wayne and others have said as much. Nobody here is defending him.

But the same is just as true of all the other Leavers, who continue to ram through the stupidest possible Brexit despite never having had the slightest idea of what it would entail or how they might actually accomplish anything.

Cameron has not been the Prime Minister in some time, and so, obviously, responsibility for the current ongoing debacle has shifted to those who are still lying through their teeth about what sort of "plans" they have, and what is likely to result.
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Your right Cameron has gone and May is in. So we've just swapped one remainer for another. No leading leave figure at the helm so I really don't see how the leave campaign are supposed to sort anything out if they aren't in charge of the situation.
abelard said:
I meant to quote @Gwladysstreetlad - you'll see I have in fact quoted his last phrase. I have no idea why it lists you as the source - I hadn't even noticed until now.
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Only just noticed that you'd quoted me. No idea why @peteblue would get tagged insted.
peteblue said:
Thanks, I did think it out of character tbh.......
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On the positive side Pete, it could of been worse. @abelard could of confused you for a remainer!lol
 
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