Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

Project fear though (or something).

 

[orchard]

Gove, May, Bozza and Leddy have this covered. Can't see what the fuss is about, they are always acting in accord with the National interest.

Surprise, surprise, we seem ill equipped to cope with the changes to our food supply:

"

• Severe problems with the UK food system are likely unless issues are addressed, according to latest expert report
• The retail industry is predicting price rises of up to 22 per cent in imported goods, if the UK opts for a 'hard Brexit'
• Report prepared by three of the UK's leading food and agricultural policy analysts.

The UK is unprepared for the most complex ever change to its food system, which will be required before Brexit, according to a new briefing paper published by SPRU, the Science Policy Research Unit at the University of Sussex.

The report, by leading food policy specialists Professor Erik Millstone (University of Sussex), Professor Tim Lang (City, University of London) and Professor Terry Marsden (Cardiff University), concludes that leaving the European Union poses serious risks to consumer interests, public health, businesses and workers in the food sector.

Its authors claim that this is because there is no Government vision for UK food or agriculture, yet prices, quality, supply and the environment will all be adversely affected even with a 'soft' Brexit.

They warn that British consumers have not been informed about the "enormous" implications for their food, a third of which comes from within the European Union.

The 86-page report is the first major review of the ways leaving the EU will have an impact on UK food and farming.

Professor Millstone said: "In the EU, UK consumers and public health have benefited from EU-wide safety standards, without which there will be a risk of the UK having less safe and nutritious products."

Professor Lang said: "UK food security and sustainability are now at stake. A food system which has an estimated three to five days of stocks cannot just walk away from the EU, which provides us with 31 per cent of our food. Anyone who thinks that this will be simple is ill-informed."

The report examines available industry and government data, policies and literature on a wide range of issues including production, farming, employment, quality, safety standards and the environment. It highlights 16 key issues that must be addressed by the Government in its negotiations with the EU.

Among the 16 issues which the paper urges Ministers to address are needs for:

• An urgent need for a clear integrated plan for UK food - the UK government currently has no UK food policy
• Clarification on food crossing borders, particularly from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland
• New legislation to replace 4,000 pieces of EU law relating to food
• Scientific and regulatory infrastructure, replacing at least 30 EU-based bodies
• Farm viability and subsidies to replace the EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)
• Fishing policies that are more than rejecting the 1964 pre-EU London Convention
• Food labour - 35 per cent of food manufacturing labour is from the EU; more in parts of catering and horticulture
• Some idea of from where UK food will come - as only around 54-61 per cent is currently UK-sourced
• Tariffs - retail industry says tariffs could raise imported food prices by 22 per cent post-Brexit
• Prices, which are already rising and likely to rise more, will become more volatile, especially harming poor consumers
• Quality standards throughout supply chains, which are currently set by the EU, may well decline, and may do so abruptly.

The report draws on more than 200 sources, including many interviews with senior figures across the food chain, as well as official, industry and scientific documents and statistics.

It warns that a "Food Brexit" is of unprecedented importance and is happening at a time when the UK food system is already vulnerable, with self-sufficiency also in decline.

Professors Millstone, Lang and Marsden say their report is a wake-up call to the public and a Government that has little experience of food negotiations and has failed to warn consumers of the disruptions ahead.

The report makes detailed recommendations for each of the 16 key issues explored. They call on the public, civil society and academics to put pressure on Government and MPs to:

• Publish policy commitment to a low-impact, health-oriented UK food system
• Create a new statutory framework for UK food, which authors term "One Nation Food"
• Commit to the UN Sustainable Development Goals and the Paris climate agreement in any new food framework
• Establish a new National Commission on Food and Agriculture to provide oversight and review, and to be a source of advice trusted by the British public.

Professor Marsden said: "The UK's food system already faces unprecedented challenges on environment and jobs - we see real dangers that these are already being dislocated by Brexit uncertainties."

Professor Millstone said: "Since the Brexit referendum UK food and agricultural policy has been in chaos. Not only have ministers yet to develop a strategy or make decisions, they have not even grasped the issues about which urgent decisions are needed. Unless things change rapidly, and in line with our recommendations, the UK will not only have policy chaos, the food system itself will become increasingly chaotic."

Professor Lang said: "At least the UK entered World War Two with emergency plans. No-one has warned the public that a Food Brexit carries real risks of disruption to sources, prices and quality. There is solid evidence about vulnerabilities ranging from diet-related ill-health to ecosystems stress.

"Food is the biggest slice of EU-related regulations and laws, yet so far the Government has only sketchily flagged a new Agriculture Act and Fisheries Act in the Queen's Speech.

"British consumers spend £201 billion on food a year, with the entire food chain contributing about £110 billion gross value added (GVA). Of this, agriculture accounts for less than £9 billion GVA, and fisheries £0.7 billion GVA.

"The Government has provided next to no details on agriculture and fisheries, and there has been total silence on the rest of the food chain where most employment, value adding and consumer choice are made. With the Brexit deadline in 20 months, this is a serious policy failure on an unprecedented scale. Anyone would think they want a drop into the World Trade Organisation abyss."

 

[DownOnTheUpside]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/take-in-migrants-or-leave-eu-tells-hungary-and-poland-rscwfgtwn

the EU should have remained as a single market at opposed to becoming the quasi superstate that it has. It's looking like the eastern and western European nations are increasingly falling out

 

[Bruce Wayne]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/take-in-migrants-or-leave-eu-tells-hungary-and-poland-rscwfgtwn

the EU should have remained as a single market at opposed to becoming the quasi superstate that it has. It's looking like the eastern and western European nations are increasingly falling out

I suspect the ghastly Polish state see no irony at all in their opposition to accepting refugees coming at the same time that Britain voted to leave the EU in no small part due to opposition to Polish migrants. Intolerance cuts both ways unfortunately.

 

[edge]

Project fear though (or something).

Its back in full swing, since this shambles of a government has been stumbling along with its infighting and took its eye off the ball, the EU side of things is being give to much traction without any reply as to what we are planning to do, that's if this lot have a plan.
Said from day one we will end up with some half arsed agreement that will suit neither side of the argument.
Meanwhile the EU central bank is still printing money to prop the EU economy up, and cant turn the tap off as the figures don't look good
German banks have made a billion from Greece's debts in the last 2 years, Greece expected to be going back shortly for more loans
German car manufacturing is suffering a downturn in sales.
Poland and Hungary getting threatened with getting thrown out if they don't get into line over immigration.
Nothing has changed since we have decided to leave, but its now being seen as a promised land of milk and honey by some.
We are getting a propaganda onslaught from the EU and its supporters in the press and wider media due to May and co appearing weak and in crisis,(which they are )it will not end till she is gone.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Its back in full swing, since this shambles of a government has been stumbling along with its infighting and took its eye off the ball, the EU side of things is being give to much traction without any reply as to what we are planning to do, that's if this lot have a plan.
Said from day one we will end up with some half arsed agreement that will suit neither side of the argument.
Meanwhile the EU central bank is still printing money to prop the EU economy up, and cant turn the tap off as the figures don't look good
German banks have made a billion from Greece's debts in the last 2 years, Greece expected to be going back shortly for more loans
German car manufacturing is suffering a downturn in sales.
Poland and Hungary getting threatened with getting thrown out if they don't get into line over immigration.
Nothing has changed since we have decided to leave, but its now being seen as a promised land of milk and honey by some.
We are getting a propaganda onslaught from the EU and its supporters in the press and wider media due to May and co appearing weak and in crisis,(which they are )it will not end till she is gone.

The report I mentioned project fear in relation to was written by the British food industry

 

[edge]

The report I mentioned project fear in relation to was written by the British food industry

Published by a man who has spent the last few years specialising in the EU and its affect on agriculture, hardly likely to say anything else.
There is no need for the UK to lower any standards at all on food standard or importation of food, why is he saying there will be?.
Migrant workers can be brought in on a seasonal visa quota as we did before the EU, in fact there has been a fall within the EU of workers wanting to fill these jobs due to the currency exchange rates.
He says it will lead to price rises, yet he conveniently overlooks the fact that we can trade without or lower tariffs with none EU countries currently being imposed by the EU as we see fit.
Shop at 26 counties or 400 odd , normally given a wider choice the prices for goods come down restrict the choice they go up, that's how the free market you like so much works doesn't it.
Have a brief look at the EU treatment of foodstuffs and its tariffs on Africa to see what its doing to the wider world.
ps on another note see the EU are offering Japan a free trade agreement, doubt that will have free movement ect tagged on to it, funny they cant do it with us.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Published by a man who has spent the last few years specialising in the EU and its affect on agriculture, hardly likely to say anything else.

So he'd know a bit about it, no? We seem to be being led by people with very little knowledge of what it is, how it impacts us, and what we would need to replicate to even stand still, all whilst sneering at those who have that knowledge. The food industry joins the nuclear industry, the air industry and the CBI in general who have come out voicing considerable concerns in the last few weeks alone.

There is no need for the UK to lower any standards at all on food standard or importation of food, why is he saying there will be?

It's a risk, isn't it? I mean TTIP was largely opposed in the UK because of the way the US treats its food. They're probably top of the list of countries we would want to strike a trade deal with.

He says it will lead to price rises, yet he conveniently overlooks the fact that we can trade without or lower tariffs with none EU countries currently being imposed by the EU as we see fit.

Of course, we could do that, but the fact remains that upon leaving the EU we won't have that, and history of trade deals suggests they take ~ 10 years to complete. That's a long time waiting for the good times, don't you think?

Shop at 26 counties or 400 odd , normally given a wider choice the prices for goods come down restrict the choice they go up, that's how the free market you like so much works doesn't it.

Again though, that overlooks the history of globalised trade. I forget the name of the economist that coined it, but despite global trade being easier than ever before, countries continue to trade most heavily with those that are geographically close to them. This isn't an EU phenomenon, it's a global one.

Have a brief look at the EU treatment of foodstuffs and its tariffs on Africa to see what its doing to the wider world.
ps on another note see the EU are offering Japan a free trade agreement, doubt that will have free movement ect tagged on to it, funny they cant do it with us.

I don't doubt that the CAP has been terrible for global poverty, just as the continuation of restrictions on the movement of people has been (see my other thread). Historically food has been one of those prickly topics that makes negotiating trade deals so difficult.

 

[edge]

So he'd know a bit about it, no? We seem to be being led by people with very little knowledge of what it is, how it impacts us, and what we would need to replicate to even stand still, all whilst sneering at those who have that knowledge. The food industry joins the nuclear industry, the air industry and the CBI in general who have come out voicing considerable concerns in the last few weeks alone.



It's a risk, isn't it? I mean TTIP was largely opposed in the UK because of the way the US treats its food. They're probably top of the list of countries we would want to strike a trade deal with.



Of course, we could do that, but the fact remains that upon leaving the EU we won't have that, and history of trade deals suggests they take ~ 10 years to complete. That's a long time waiting for the good times, don't you think?



Again though, that overlooks the history of globalised trade. I forget the name of the economist that coined it, but despite global trade being easier than ever before, countries continue to trade most heavily with those that are geographically close to them. This isn't an EU phenomenon, it's a global one.



I don't doubt that the CAP has been terrible for global poverty, just as the continuation of restrictions on the movement of people has been (see my other thread). Historically food has been one of those prickly topics that makes negotiating trade deals so difficult.

I wasn't sneering at the mans knowledge, just at his motives , as the people named as his collaborators are on a brief examination all involved in rather Green leaning groups, , one is in fact a hill farmer, which makes him, if in receipt of the average EU grant of £52000 pound a year, and largely is uneconomically unsustainable without it as the average earnings are around £33000 a year,( I know I listen to farming today radio 4 to much).hardly the most likely people to have an objective view on the subject of leaving the EU
trade deals, well I suppose its who is doing them that dictates the time they take, I will give you that I wouldn't have much faith in the current lot doing it well it would be a worry.
To be honest Bruce I have been ignoring most of it lately as my view on the current group of politicians, here and further afield isn't very high, its mostly point scoring petty and pointless they wind me up so have been keeping no more than a scant look at it lately.

 

[peteblue]

I wasn't sneering at the mans knowledge, just at his motives , as the people named as his collaborators are on a brief examination all involved in rather Green leaning groups, , one is in fact a hill farmer, which makes him, if in receipt of the average EU grant of £52000 pound a year, and largely is uneconomically unsustainable without it as the average earnings are around £33000 a year,( I know I listen to farming today radio 4 to much).hardly the most likely people to have an objective view on the subject of leaving the EU
trade deals, well I suppose its who is doing them that dictates the time they take, I will give you that I wouldn't have much faith in the current lot doing it well it would be a worry.
To be honest Bruce I have been ignoring most of it lately as my view on the current group of politicians, here and further afield isn't very high, its mostly point scoring petty and pointless they wind me up so have been keeping no more than a scant look at it lately.

It's one of the reasons that the EU likes to distribute money, it generates a loyal client base.......

 

[degsy]

Its back in full swing, since this shambles of a government has been stumbling along with its infighting and took its eye off the ball, the EU side of things is being give to much traction without any reply as to what we are planning to do, that's if this lot have a plan.
Said from day one we will end up with some half arsed agreement that will suit neither side of the argument.
Meanwhile the EU central bank is still printing money to prop the EU economy up, and cant turn the tap off as the figures don't look good
German banks have made a billion from Greece's debts in the last 2 years, Greece expected to be going back shortly for more loans
German car manufacturing is suffering a downturn in sales.
Poland and Hungary getting threatened with getting thrown out if they don't get into line over immigration.
Nothing has changed since we have decided to leave, but its now being seen as a promised land of milk and honey by some.
We are getting a propaganda onslaught from the EU and its supporters in the press and wider media due to May and co appearing weak and in crisis,(which they are )it will not end till she is gone.

History doesn't repeat it's self but it does rhyme.
Could the EU, if it doesn't change it's self from the inside go the way ( this is the not repeat but rhyme bit) of The Austro-Hungarian Empire or Yugoslavia - more rhyming
All 3, long past their use by date, 'held together' by a 'strongman' The Germans and their Banks, Franz Joseph, Tito
Could Brexit just be the excuse, the Sarajevo..which didn't actually cause WW1 - Those German Divisions didn't move themselves over the border into Belgium.

 

[edge]

History doesn't repeat it's self but it does rhyme.
Could the EU, if it doesn't change it's self from the inside go the way ( this is the not repeat but rhyme bit) of The Austro-Hungarian Empire or Yugoslavia - more rhyming
All 3, long past their use by date, 'held together' by a 'strongman' The Germans and their Banks, Franz Joseph, Tito
Could Brexit just be the excuse, the Sarajevo..which didn't actually cause WW1 - Those German Divisions didn't move themselves over the border into Belgium.

if it doesn't change from within its doomed, suspect it already is in its present form, shame really as despite my constant warring on the subject it could if it stayed on a purely trading block could been a very good force in Europe sadly hijacked as a means to socially and economically engineer the population of Europe down a path they have never voted for.

 

[degsy]

if it doesn't change from within its doomed, suspect it already is in its present form, shame really as despite my constant warring on the subject it could if it stayed on a purely trading block could been a very good force in Europe sadly hijacked as a means to socially and economically engineer the population of Europe down a path they have never voted for.

Then Brexit might be just what it and the UK needed, a push to overcome the Inertia and start it rolling. Not to hard though or who knows where it will end up.

 

[edge]

Then Brexit might be just what it and the UK needed, a push to overcome the Inertia and start it rolling. Not to hard though or who knows where it will end up.

don't think anyone seriously has a clue were it will end up here or in the EU, hopefully in a bit of common sense on everybody's part .
May is to weak, needs to sack a few , I know she got laughed at trying to get other parties on board, but I think it should have been done, not just brexit supporting MP's but a broad church on nationalist ect to try and get some common ground as we go forward.
Put the UK interests above petty squabbling and party politics.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

if it doesn't change from within its doomed, suspect it already is in its present form, shame really as despite my constant warring on the subject it could if it stayed on a purely trading block could been a very good force in Europe sadly hijacked as a means to socially and economically engineer the population of Europe down a path they have never voted for.

On the contrary, I think the EU is doing well at the moment (at the right things at any rate). The French election of Macron, and the Dutch rejection of Wilders, has given them a fillip and helped reaffirm the liberal core it has. The EU economy is doing considerably better than the UK economy, and if anything, Brexit has helped secure those results in both the Netherlands and France as the continent rejected the populism that suckered us in.

The only real threat to the EU at the moment is Trump, and frankly that lunatic is a threat to all of humanity.

Oh, and please, can we stop this silliness about 'remaining a trading block', as it's completely groundless. For instance, I mentioned earlier about the air industry getting jittery as Brexit means they leave the EU open aviation market that allows them to fly to/from any airport in the EU. Part of that agreement is not only access to the market, but access to the European Aviation Safety Agency, which in addition to providing safety rules and regulations, also ensures that aircraft can access the EU market mentioned above.

Similar rules occur in most industries, from nuclear to agriculture, and are a fundamental part of regulating a common market. You play the game, you play by the same rules as everyone else. That happens for all countries that sign a deal with the EU, but whereas Britain had a say in crafting those rules before, now it will have none.

Of the four freedoms that underpin the EU, each and every one of them concerns trade, and it baffles me how people think we can trade internationally whilst cocking a snook at everyone else and imposing ourselves on the global community. It's cloud cuckoo land.