Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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two of the four front runners in the French elections are asking for a vote on the EU one on the right one on the left.

It's interesting how close the right and left are on many matters. In many ways I think the classification is outdated and the public are looking for parties to vote for that are offering something different to the (failing IMO) status quo.

Whether a party of the so called left or so called right benefits from this depends on how prominent to successful they are at getting their point across in their respective countries. The public will vote for whichever comes across more strongly
 
two of the four front runners in the French elections are asking for a vote on the EU one on the right one on the left.

I think the EU will stave off break up this time (and France and other countries won't yet vote for it) but IMO it is only a matter of time and as sure as the sun rising in the morning that it will happen before too long (part of the ebb and flow of history - empires building and then dismantling again)
 
It's interesting how close the right and left are on many matters. In many ways I think the classification is outdated and the public are looking for parties to vote for that are offering something different to the (failing IMO) status quo.

Whether a party of the so called left or so called right benefits from this depends on how prominent to successful they are at getting their point across in their respective countries. The public will vote for whichever comes across more strongly

If you use the classic political matrix that breaks right/left down into economic/social, then I suspect there is a lot of commonality at the moment around social conservatism and opposition to globalisation, which you could probably place in the economic left. So in other words, economic left wing/social right wing.
 
It's interesting how close the right and left are on many matters. In many ways I think the classification is outdated and the public are looking for parties to vote for that are offering something different to the (failing IMO) status quo.

Whether a party of the so called left or so called right benefits from this depends on how prominent to successful they are at getting their point across in their respective countries. The public will vote for whichever comes across more strongly
think its a sign that people want a change not matter which way they vote on the political spectrum
 
Interesting piece on the last time countries had to leave a multinational institution - The League of Nations.

Brexit has few precedents in international history.

Parallels have been drawn to Greenland’s 1985 European Community withdrawal, and Burundi and Gambia abandoning International Criminal Court membership. Yet, the UK’s decision to leave the European Union is unmatched in recent history. No country has ever withdrawn from an international organisation, potentially cutting ties with the world’s most tight knit common market, on this scale before.

The closest to a relevant parallel is the League of Nations, which dealt with the withdrawal of multiple member states between 1925 and 1939.

Leaving the league
The international League of Nations was founded after World War I, dedicated to the prevention of war through disarmament, arbitration and a system of collective security guarantees.

Like Article 50, the league’s founding text, the Covenant of the League of Nations, sets out withdrawal conditions and a two-year notification period. But – as with Article 50 – it was never thought that the Convenant’s withdrawal paragraph would be invoked; US President Woodrow Wilson suggested its inclusion to gain approval of the reticent US Senate.

However, the league’s experience with countries leaving during the interwar period can now offer some valuable lessons for the Brexit process.

1. Pay your dues
When Costa Rica notified the League of Nations of its intention to withdraw in 1923, it forwarded a cheque to cover outstanding membership and incurred expenditures. The departure was a straightforward affair.

By contrast, the 1935 withdrawal of Paraguay was fraught with complications: financial default inhibited it from paying its outstanding league debt. A territorial dispute with Bolivia had also led to war in 1933 – even though unjustified military aggression was in violation of the covenant. Paraguay remained in limbo for two years after notification: its benefits were restricted by the league, but no agreement was found over its obligations.

Taking from this, the Brexit negotiators should quickly settle all financial obligations, to avoid a protracted argument over the country’s outstanding debt – rumoured to be around €60 billion. If not, the UK could end up fighting for years over something that could be settled from the get go.

2. Think about future cooperation
Not all ties can be cut, and countries commonly retain some form of technical cooperation. After Japan withdrew in 1935, it continued to participate in subsidiaries such as the league’s own health organisation, and continued to administer a territory allocated by the league.

The EU and UK could certainly continue to cooperate on shared interests: international terrorism, border security and energy, for example. But a hard Brexit and diplomatic posturing could potentially disrupt the delicate balance of all parties’ interests in these areas.

3. Don’t forget details
In 1933 the Nazi regime in Germany felt its departure from the league would leave it unconstrained in the international realm. However, the country’s existing disarmament obligations wrecked the withdrawal process. Although the regime paid its debt to the league in full, other obligations – for example, regarding the protection of religious minorities – allowed the league to consider possible sanctions in case of withdrawal. Unfortunately, the league members never agreed on appropriate sanctions.

While there is no strong analogy here between Germany and the UK, the league experience demonstrates that separate but entangled legal bodies can constrain withdrawal. There has already been heated discussion over how the UK’s departure would impact the Good Friday agreements in Northern Ireland and the status of Gibraltar, debates which are bound to continue over the next two years.

4. Work within the framework
For an organisation that had 58 members at its height, the list of league withdrawals is damning. Larger countries such as Germany, Japan and Italy as well as the smaller Guatemala and El Salvador all left the organisation, leaving it with just 34 member nations at the time of its final demise in 1947.

In 1919, Wilson thought that “the fetish of state sovereignty” would be the chief obstacle to the league’s success – and in some ways he was right. Though the departures of Guatemala and El Salvador were a consequence of the league’s waning influence in the 1930s, the cases of Germany, Japan and Italy reveal a different story. They were mid-sized countries with international ambitions but increasingly at odds with the league’s method of public deliberation and consensus-based governance. Instead, the trio opted for unilateral action and a confrontational style of diplomacy.

These countries were adamant to retain their national sovereignty, to “take back control”. But rather than putting these countries on a course for cooperation, it led to confrontation, eventually resulting in World War II.

5. Something might go wrong
The importance of a future relationship makes a complete disruption of relations between the EU and the UK unlikely. But mutual dependency may falter if there is a fundamental disagreement, and a dispute could lead to trade barriers and retaliations. While the league was chiefly a political organisation, the EU represents an integrated political and economic entity which could make the UK’s life outside isolated and difficult.

While there are no perfect analogies, the League of Nations experience shows just how complicated it can be to withdraw from an international organisation. The importance of future relations makes goodwill from both sides essential to conclude an agreement on the terms of departure – and both the UK and EU would do well to heed these lessons going forward.

Source: https://theconversation.com/five-le...-should-take-from-the-league-of-nations-75571

What on earth has leaving the League of Nations (a non political and non economic group) got to do with leaving the political and economic EU. To causally throw in a reference to Nazi Germany in the same sentence as the UK is just absurd....
 
Well we may be one of the first to leave but there are going to be a lot more lol

And there are plenty of examples of large empires and groupings dismantling (the USSR for one).

Infact it's as sure as anything that just as large groupings will form that they will some day dismantle. This is the ebb and flow of history!

Indeed. The biggest Empire of them all was dismantled, voluntarily, in a very short period of time......
 
What on earth has leaving the League of Nations (a non political and non economic group) got to do with leaving the political and economic EU. To causally throw in a reference to Nazi Germany in the same sentence as the UK is just absurd....

Its primary goals, as stated in its Covenant, included preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration.[2] Other issues in this and related treaties included labour conditions, just treatment of native inhabitants, human and drug trafficking, the arms trade, global health, prisoners of war, and protection of minorities in Europe.

Hardly sounds non-political to me Pete. The reference to Germany was that they left the League in large part in order to 'regain sovereignty'.
 
Its primary goals, as stated in its Covenant, included preventing wars through collective security and disarmament and settling international disputes through negotiation and arbitration.[2] Other issues in this and related treaties included labour conditions, just treatment of native inhabitants, human and drug trafficking, the arms trade, global health, prisoners of war, and protection of minorities in Europe.

Hardly sounds non-political to me Pete. The reference to Germany was that they left the League in large part in order to 'regain sovereignty'.

There was no sovereignty ceded to the League of Nations, it was just a forerunner of the UN. It was there to resolve issues between nations and keep the peace. In no way shape or form was it comparable to the EU......
 
About the flow of labour:

Rather than a brain-drain, the 13-country European Union (EU) expansion initiated more than a decade ago triggered a brain-reconfiguration -- the rising circulation of knowledge through the increased mobility of highly skilled workers in high-demand fields.

UC Merced Professor Alexander M. Petersen and his colleague Michelangelo Puliga with the IMT Lucca School for Advanced Studies in Lucca, Italy, used the 2004 EU expansion -- and its implicit guarantee of free movement of labor -- as a basis to study the effects of the expanding high-skilled labor markets on European integration.

Petersen and Puliga's new paper, featured on the cover of the April issue of the Journal of the Royal Society Interface, shows how the EU expansion facilitated the inter-European circulation of people in the medical, technical, educational, scientific, engineering and business and legal communities.

One factor facilitating the growth of the high-skilled labor markets is the EU's policy of converging standards. Think of it as reciprocity between American states, where some achievements in one state -- such as passing the bar in California -- mean the achiever can practice his or her trade in some other states without retaking tests or re-earning degrees.

By developing data-driven models to explore the structural dynamics of the labor-mobility networks, the researchers provide quantitative insight into the process and outcomes of highly skilled migration.

While most workers are going from east to west, as was traditionally true, Petersen and Puliga also uncovered an emerging reverse migration channel moving west to east.

"... We observe a net directional loss of human capital from east to west, representing 29 percent of the total mobility after 2004. Nevertheless, the counter-migration from west to east is 7 percent of the total mobility over the same period, signaling the emergence of brain circulation within the EU," the researchers wrote.

"This is important for science and other knowledge-based domains that rely on the free mobility of knowledge," Petersen said. "Also, when people move, they don't just take their knowledge and skills, they build social mini-bridges. When you add those mini-bridges together, they create substantial bridges between cultures and knowledge. What we observed in our study is a good sign of circulation, and thus integration, which wasn't really visible before."

Expanding circulation suggests the increased potential for international collaboration, which in science can lead to huge advances and breakthroughs. That could further contribute to the competitiveness of the collective science systems.

However, in a companion paper published in the April 12 issue of Science Advances, Petersen and colleagues demonstrate the negative effects of brain-drain on the cross-border collaboration rate in Europe. Quite unexpectedly, the researchers show that European cross-border integration would have been higher had the Eastern European countries not joined the EU.

The EU incentivizes migration and collaboration, and the member countries have spent a lot of time and effort on trying to integrate research.

"However, sadly, when people move around, the bridges they've built will dissolve if they are not actively maintained," Petersen said.

Another huge change the researchers began to consider but will have to factor in later in more detail is Brexit -- Great Britain's imminent divorce from the EU -- the legal proceedings of which began at the end of March.

"There are a lot of ramifications, even with a 'soft' Brexit," Petersen said. The change in mobility could have a downside for the United Kingdom, which is a dominant immigration hub toward which high-skilled laborers have long gravitated.

"Nevertheless, while it might not be great for the U.K. and some secondary countries, the prospects for labor mobility and competitiveness in the rest of Europe may become more egalitarian," Petersen said.

For example, the EU pools research money from its member countries and distributes it, and the U.K., being such a powerhouse, likely got more than its share, he said. What will happen to British scientific research when the country has to pay its own way is still unknown.

"This could be a really good time for rethinking and retooling programs for the EU," Petersen said. "It's a good time to take advantage of what we can learn from past experiences -- both personal and collective."

A computational social scientist, Petersen is a member of the Ernest and Julio Gallo Management Program, housed in the School of Engineering. Before joining UC Merced in 2016, he was an expat scientist in Italy.

The outcome of his interdisciplinary collaboration at the IMT Lucca speaks to the possibility and potential fostered by international mobility.

Source: http://www.ucmerced.edu/news/2017/study-identifies-effects-eu-expansion-labor-research
 
Yessss, Jezza. That's it! Come off that Fence!

Jeremy Corbyn says Brexit may 'upgrade our economy'
2 hours ago
From the section
UK Politics 254
comments


Leaving the EU could offer new opportunities to "upgrade our economy", Jeremy Corbyn says.
The Labour leader said Whitehall and councils could obtain new opportunities to use their "incredible" purchasing power to support UK businesses and boost local economies.
Labour also wants firms bidding for public contracts to have to recognise unions and curb "boardroom excess".
On a visit to Doncaster, Mr Corbyn said Brexit presented "many challenges".
But the Labour leader, who campaigned to remain in the EU, added that severing ties with Brussels could also "give us more powers to encourage best practices and support new and existing businesses and industries in Britain".
Brexit: All you need to know
Labour said that because EU rules meant certain public contracts currently had to be opened to competition from elsewhere in Europe, Brexit could "allow public bodies to use local pounds on local jobs and businesses".
It said this would "therefore create scope for additional flexibility" for public bodies to "require the use of local or regional suppliers after Brexit", meaning cash could be directed "back into local economies".
Mr Corbyn added: "While the Conservatives seem intent on using Brexit to turn us into a low-wage tax haven, Labour will use every power possible to upgrade our economy so we can all lead richer lives."
'Cynical'
The UK is set to leave the EU in March 2019.
Labour also said the UK should assess the impact on local councils of its membership of a World Trade Organization procurement agreement - which the UK is part of as an EU member - requiring contracts above certain thresholds to be opened up to foreign competition.
Labour has previously said that firms bidding for contracts would need to comply with collective bargaining agreements, pay suppliers within 30 days, maintain high environmental standards, provide training and apprenticeship opportunities, comply fully with tax requirements and adopt "best practices" in equal opportunities.
All of this is possible within existing EU rules, it said.
Conservative Party chairman Patrick McLoughlin attacked Labour's bid to force companies bidding for government contracts to recognise trade unions.
"This cynical attempt by the Labour Party to give more power to their union paymasters would force up council procurement costs, causing council tax to soar," he said.
 
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