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https://gavinkellyblog.com/stop-cal...ing-something-instead-7c817aee0ca5#.4mzdtslho

"Mark Carney did it this week. The day before it was the Chief Economist of the IMF. Rather than merriment ’tis the season for global economic leaders to decry the inequities of globalisation and declare that more needs to be done to help the victims of change.

They are channelling a new mood of introspection. Take part in a post-Brexit, post-Trump discussion with leading British or American economists and — once you get past the angst and puzzlement — you can be sure that you will hear repeated reference to the imperative of ‘compensating losers’.

It is the ubiquitous catchphrase that nods to the fact that economic openness will result in casualties and implies support for doing something about it — without saying what. Whether wittingly or not, it serves as a great get-out clause that enables many of our finest economists to side-step the messy business of working through how, in reality, to support people and places affected by structural shifts in the global economy.

Until recently the typical stance on free trade taken can (only slightly unfairly) be characterised as: it raises productivity and in aggregate makes us much richer; alas, there will be some losers; but not so many and they’ll soon recover; schemes to help them tend to be messy and possibly counterproductive; let’s move on. Even now this would still be fairly common (though of course some have long railed against this outlook).

From the vantage point of late 2016 this aversion to grappling with these gnarly distributive and policy questions looks like rather more than a minor collective professional oversight. Even before this year’s seismic political events, crucial new research shook up complacency over the downside of trade as it dramatically revised up the estimates of the costs of the ‘China Shock’. David Autor and colleagues have shown that the adjustment process is ‘stunningly slow’ with wages and employment in affected areas affected over the long-run. (Other recent work highlights the impact of import competition on job-polarisation in European countries or on voting behaviour not least in the recent Brexit vote).

None of this is to say that trade has been the only or even largest factor behind trends such as the decline of manufacturing — automation probably takes that prize (though the two intertwine). But that will be of little comfort to those on the receiving end of additional pain arising from foreign competition who face losses that are large, persistent and dwarf compensating payments. Nor, to state the obvious, can the burden be measured simply in terms of earnings forgone: identity, status and the wider social fabric — as much as wages — are often the casualty. And being told you’re a ‘loser’ now eligible for welfare really won’t feel much like ‘compensation’.

There are, of course, many serious economists doing all manner of relevant work — say the returns to training to improving progression at work — that provides an insight into how to assist workers and communities adjust to shocks, whether they come in the form of trade or technology. But there are precious few seeking to put all these elements together to provide a sense of the overall policy regimes best placed to help people and places rebound.

One consequence is that a generation of politicians and policy-makers look exposed. Even as they strain for new things to say they find themselves tethered to good-times assumptions forged in the 1990s when openness, macro-stability and flexible labour markets — leavened with tax credits and investment in skills — were thought to be a reliable recipe for a 21st century economy that works for all. Britain is hardly alone in this regard. As the US economist Jared Bernstein put it last week: ‘Yes the Rust belt demands an answer — but does anyone know what it is?’"


One thing we should know, however, is that it is wise to exercise caution in relation to familiar lines of argument which, though partially correct, fall short of offering a ‘big solution’. An example is the belief that all policy can really do is help people leave affected areas. Geographic mobility is a fine thing and we could do with more of it in the UK (and US). But are we really going to argue that the primary answer to the problems of post-industrial northern towns is for an ever larger proportion of prime-age workers to exit? The political fallout of such an approach has never looked uglier.

Another familiar view is that compensating losers is really all about having a strong welfare system that looks after people and places that can’t cut in the market. Three cheers for the idea of a robust social security system. But the notion that welfare spending is the route to rejuvenating economies on the wrong side of sweeping import competition is a non-starter. And then there is the perennial call for re-skilling. Again, there is plenty more that could be done via training (and gutting the adult-skills budget is a terrible mistake). Yet we ask too much if we expect it to be our central response to structural shifts in demand in a local economy. Nor does it pass the political sniff test. One of the many hard-lessons coming out of the recent US Presidential campaign is that you can’t fight big lies like ‘mines will be re-opened’ or ‘manufacturing jobs re-shored’ with small pledges to retrain displaced workers.

Imaginative work on the future policy landscape is sorely needed which combine sustaining demand in struggling economies with new thinking about the types of combined interventions needed to provide them with at least a chance of longer-term renewal. Among many other things, it’s hard to see how this could mean anything other than a dramatic upward shift in our ambitions for infrastructure investment as well as a willingness to depart from standard cost-benefit approaches that will dictate that the priority should be high-growth areas (a point Diane Coyle makes well).

Those who (like me) believe that open economies remain the best way of securing broadly-based prosperity need to take these wider questions of policy design and public consent seriously. Far more so than has been the case over the last generation, and in ways that will upset aspects of conventional thinking. After all, it is the worldview of those who believed that the need to ‘compensate losers’ was something of a side-show that has suffered the biggest defeat of all this year.
 
https://gavinkellyblog.com/stop-cal...ing-something-instead-7c817aee0ca5#.4mzdtslho

"Mark Carney did it this week. The day before it was the Chief Economist of the IMF. Rather than merriment ’tis the season for global economic leaders to decry the inequities of globalisation and declare that more needs to be done to help the victims of change.

They are channelling a new mood of introspection. Take part in a post-Brexit, post-Trump discussion with leading British or American economists and — once you get past the angst and puzzlement — you can be sure that you will hear repeated reference to the imperative of ‘compensating losers’.

It is the ubiquitous catchphrase that nods to the fact that economic openness will result in casualties and implies support for doing something about it — without saying what. Whether wittingly or not, it serves as a great get-out clause that enables many of our finest economists to side-step the messy business of working through how, in reality, to support people and places affected by structural shifts in the global economy.

Until recently the typical stance on free trade taken can (only slightly unfairly) be characterised as: it raises productivity and in aggregate makes us much richer; alas, there will be some losers; but not so many and they’ll soon recover; schemes to help them tend to be messy and possibly counterproductive; let’s move on. Even now this would still be fairly common (though of course some have long railed against this outlook).

From the vantage point of late 2016 this aversion to grappling with these gnarly distributive and policy questions looks like rather more than a minor collective professional oversight. Even before this year’s seismic political events, crucial new research shook up complacency over the downside of trade as it dramatically revised up the estimates of the costs of the ‘China Shock’. David Autor and colleagues have shown that the adjustment process is ‘stunningly slow’ with wages and employment in affected areas affected over the long-run. (Other recent work highlights the impact of import competition on job-polarisation in European countries or on voting behaviour not least in the recent Brexit vote).

None of this is to say that trade has been the only or even largest factor behind trends such as the decline of manufacturing — automation probably takes that prize (though the two intertwine). But that will be of little comfort to those on the receiving end of additional pain arising from foreign competition who face losses that are large, persistent and dwarf compensating payments. Nor, to state the obvious, can the burden be measured simply in terms of earnings forgone: identity, status and the wider social fabric — as much as wages — are often the casualty. And being told you’re a ‘loser’ now eligible for welfare really won’t feel much like ‘compensation’.

There are, of course, many serious economists doing all manner of relevant work — say the returns to training to improving progression at work — that provides an insight into how to assist workers and communities adjust to shocks, whether they come in the form of trade or technology. But there are precious few seeking to put all these elements together to provide a sense of the overall policy regimes best placed to help people and places rebound.

One consequence is that a generation of politicians and policy-makers look exposed. Even as they strain for new things to say they find themselves tethered to good-times assumptions forged in the 1990s when openness, macro-stability and flexible labour markets — leavened with tax credits and investment in skills — were thought to be a reliable recipe for a 21st century economy that works for all. Britain is hardly alone in this regard. As the US economist Jared Bernstein put it last week: ‘Yes the Rust belt demands an answer — but does anyone know what it is?’"


One thing we should know, however, is that it is wise to exercise caution in relation to familiar lines of argument which, though partially correct, fall short of offering a ‘big solution’. An example is the belief that all policy can really do is help people leave affected areas. Geographic mobility is a fine thing and we could do with more of it in the UK (and US). But are we really going to argue that the primary answer to the problems of post-industrial northern towns is for an ever larger proportion of prime-age workers to exit? The political fallout of such an approach has never looked uglier.

Another familiar view is that compensating losers is really all about having a strong welfare system that looks after people and places that can’t cut in the market. Three cheers for the idea of a robust social security system. But the notion that welfare spending is the route to rejuvenating economies on the wrong side of sweeping import competition is a non-starter. And then there is the perennial call for re-skilling. Again, there is plenty more that could be done via training (and gutting the adult-skills budget is a terrible mistake). Yet we ask too much if we expect it to be our central response to structural shifts in demand in a local economy. Nor does it pass the political sniff test. One of the many hard-lessons coming out of the recent US Presidential campaign is that you can’t fight big lies like ‘mines will be re-opened’ or ‘manufacturing jobs re-shored’ with small pledges to retrain displaced workers.

Imaginative work on the future policy landscape is sorely needed which combine sustaining demand in struggling economies with new thinking about the types of combined interventions needed to provide them with at least a chance of longer-term renewal. Among many other things, it’s hard to see how this could mean anything other than a dramatic upward shift in our ambitions for infrastructure investment as well as a willingness to depart from standard cost-benefit approaches that will dictate that the priority should be high-growth areas (a point Diane Coyle makes well).

Those who (like me) believe that open economies remain the best way of securing broadly-based prosperity need to take these wider questions of policy design and public consent seriously. Far more so than has been the case over the last generation, and in ways that will upset aspects of conventional thinking. After all, it is the worldview of those who believed that the need to ‘compensate losers’ was something of a side-show that has suffered the biggest defeat of all this year.

Good read. We do seem to be moving relentlessly into a position where a large part of our populace are just simply forgotten and left behind. The HS2 project is one such thing, where we spend a fortune to allow businessmen and civil servants to save 20 minutes on a journey yet fail to remember that many of the population that will have this foisted upon them will never be able to afford a ticket. We open our Borders to all while many of our own cannot find a job, which only makes matters worse. We should replace 'welfare' or 'unemployment' with something like 'civic pride' where folk can be retrained and/or given work that aids their own communities. The problem of course is that the unions only represent those actually in work and the unemployed do not really have a voice. Lip service is given because political parties want their votes, but no one actively represents them, they become forgotten. As Bruce has been banging the drum about, technology will only make this worse and if we do not address it very soon, we may run out of opportunity and money to do so.......
 
Good read. We do seem to be moving relentlessly into a position where a large part of our populace are just simply forgotten and left behind. The HS2 project is one such thing, where we spend a fortune to allow businessmen and civil servants to save 20 minutes on a journey yet fail to remember that many of the population that will have this foisted upon them will never be able to afford a ticket. We open our Borders to all while many of our own cannot find a job, which only makes matters worse. We should replace 'welfare' or 'unemployment' with something like 'civic pride' where folk can be retrained and/or given work that aids their own communities. The problem of course is that the unions only represent those actually in work and the unemployed do not really have a voice. Lip service is given because political parties want their votes, but no one actively represents them, they become forgotten. As Bruce has been banging the drum about, technology will only make this worse and if we do not address it very soon, we may run out of opportunity and money to do so.......
The people left behind has been a decades long problem Pete,successive governments are to blame and would rather waste money pretending to be seen doing something rather than actually taking action,for example inflicting sactions has cost £153m more than it has saved,£143m paid out in bonuses to DWP workers for actions carried out,add into that the amount wasted on class rooms to help find employment all of which could be better used,successive governments happy to wage war for nothing bht not wage war on poverty,hand outs for the rich rather than hand ups for the poor,different colour rosettes same suits
 
Good read. We do seem to be moving relentlessly into a position where a large part of our populace are just simply forgotten and left behind. The HS2 project is one such thing, where we spend a fortune to allow businessmen and civil servants to save 20 minutes on a journey yet fail to remember that many of the population that will have this foisted upon them will never be able to afford a ticket. We open our Borders to all while many of our own cannot find a job, which only makes matters worse. We should replace 'welfare' or 'unemployment' with something like 'civic pride' where folk can be retrained and/or given work that aids their own communities. The problem of course is that the unions only represent those actually in work and the unemployed do not really have a voice. Lip service is given because political parties want their votes, but no one actively represents them, they become forgotten. As Bruce has been banging the drum about, technology will only make this worse and if we do not address it very soon, we may run out of opportunity and money to do so.......

I would say more worrying is that there are two sides of the equation. You earn money, and you spend money. The earning side of the equation is well represented politically, whether through trade unions or whatnot, and the relatively focused nature of employment makes it easy to lobby and thus gain a disproportionate impact, but the spending side is not reflected at all. What's more, the dissipated nature of consumption make it hard to really rally and thus lobby ones cause.

So we have a situation as raised in the article, whereby globalisation, and indeed automation, is hugely beneficial to most people, but the relative minority for whom these things are not beneficial have an outsized voice, and therefore impact.

To take driverless cars as a relatively simple example. For society as a whole they will be hugely beneficial, as they promise to be infinitely safer, less environmentally damaging, and allow us to be more productive. The flipside is that it is likely to make driving a redundant profession. So you might have benefits for tens of millions of people versus redundancy for ~ 1 million people. Now ask yourself honestly which side of that debate is going to be more vocal, and therefore more influential? Will you see people marching on parliament demanding their right not to be run over or be more productive?
 
Good read. We do seem to be moving relentlessly into a position where a large part of our populace are just simply forgotten and left behind. The HS2 project is one such thing, where we spend a fortune to allow businessmen and civil servants to save 20 minutes on a journey yet fail to remember that many of the population that will have this foisted upon them will never be able to afford a ticket. We open our Borders to all while many of our own cannot find a job, which only makes matters worse. We should replace 'welfare' or 'unemployment' with something like 'civic pride' where folk can be retrained and/or given work that aids their own communities. The problem of course is that the unions only represent those actually in work and the unemployed do not really have a voice. Lip service is given because political parties want their votes, but no one actively represents them, they become forgotten. As Bruce has been banging the drum about, technology will only make this worse and if we do not address it very soon, we may run out of opportunity and money to do so.......

I think this is to misread things a bit, suggesting that government are merely happy for people to be left behind.

The clear direction of Government policy since at least 1979 is to get people out of jobs that offer stability and promote self-reliance and into low paid, unstable work where they are reliant on the state for their existence. Everything they have done - legalizing (in fact encouraging) gang, agency and gig-work, wrecking terms and conditions of employment, importing such numbers of workers at the bottom end of the labour market, making people get into debt for educating themselves (and promoting personal debt generally), destroying final salary pensions, getting rid of social housing (whilst also allowing the housing bubble to grow meaning that personal home ownership is increasingly difficult), raising the compulsory retirement age and the rest - is all leading to the same end and is almost certainly deliberate policy.

Also whilst one is on about government duplicity it is perhaps worth pointing out that the route HS2 is proposed to take is not dissimilar to that proposed in the infamous "Option A" proposal of the Serpell Report, and can probably be understood as confirmation that the actual purpose of the HS2 programme is to get rid of most of the rest of the rail network (which isn't that much slower than HS2 now, and which will be in direct competition to it).
 
I'm trying to write the below without a bias on how I saw the campaigning from both sides in the referendum.

REMAIN CAMPAIGN
The economy will tank if we leave and things will get worse for you

LEAVE CAMPAIGN
"Take back control" (of immigration - we'll stop those nasty foreigners coming in for you)
(More minor but significant campaigning point: "More money for the NHS")
 
I'm trying to write the below without a bias on how I saw the campaigning from both sides in the referendum.

REMAIN CAMPAIGN
The economy will tank if we leave and things will get worse for you

LEAVE CAMPAIGN
"Take back control" (of immigration - we'll stop those nasty foreigners coming in for you)
(More minor but significant campaigning point: "More money for the NHS")
Problem with more money to the NHS is as it gets sold off the money goes to the likes of Virgincare who then pay no taxes so less money getting collected to pay for the NHS
 
Problem with more money to the NHS is as it gets sold off the money goes to the likes of Virgincare who then pay no taxes so less money getting collected to pay for the NHS

It was a crap insincere promise anyway. Rubbish sprouted on both sides though I am not sure it was any worse in those respects than a normal election.

That's more than one can say about Trump about who it is/was impossible to say what he really believed in as he changed his mind so much
 
You're conveniently forgetting the consensus of the time that it was the most unedifying, lie-strewn, racist national campaign in living memory. The whole thing brought shame onto the country, in my opinion.

Not sure I wish Id made the post now. Looks like opening up old wounds on here
 
It was a crap insincere promise anyway. Rubbish sprouted on both sides though I am not sure it was any worse in those respects than a normal election.

That's more than one can say about Trump about who it is/was impossible to say what he really believed in as he changed his mind so much
Such is the way of politicians anything to preserve themselves,though we only have ourselves to blame for that
 
is this what the trouble has been about this whole time?

https://newrepublic.com/article/138910/left-now-strangers-land

"Borders were the central issue for another Trump supporter I called. Shirley Slack is a former flight attendant in her seventies who had predicted Trump’s win. Her dread focused less on immigrants swarming into the United States than on global “higher ups” coming to direct America from “afar.” Like many commentators, she sees a link between the American vote for Trump and the British vote for Brexit. “I’ve had a lot of layovers in London hotels,” she explained, “and I tell you, the English live for their tea and toast. But the European Union wanted to ban high-powered tea kettles and toasters. If it weren’t for Brexit, the British would have had to live with a ban on eight of the best tea kettles and nine of the best toasters in England to meet emissions targets. Globalization isn’t good for a lot of us.”
 
I'm trying to write the below without a bias on how I saw the campaigning from both sides in the referendum.

REMAIN CAMPAIGN
The economy will tank if we leave and things will get worse for you

LEAVE CAMPAIGN
"Take back control" (of immigration - we'll stop those nasty foreigners coming in for you)
(More minor but significant campaigning point: "More money for the NHS")

REMAIN CAMPAIGN:
"There are absolutely no benefits whatsoever to leaving to EU, and leaving would be disastrous for the UK"

LEAVE CAMPAIGN:
"There are absolutely no benefits whatsoever to remaining in the EU, and maintaining membership would be disastrous for the UK"

I think that pretty much sums it up.
 
is this what the trouble has been about this whole time?

https://newrepublic.com/article/138910/left-now-strangers-land

"Borders were the central issue for another Trump supporter I called. Shirley Slack is a former flight attendant in her seventies who had predicted Trump’s win. Her dread focused less on immigrants swarming into the United States than on global “higher ups” coming to direct America from “afar.” Like many commentators, she sees a link between the American vote for Trump and the British vote for Brexit. “I’ve had a lot of layovers in London hotels,” she explained, “and I tell you, the English live for their tea and toast. But the European Union wanted to ban high-powered tea kettles and toasters. If it weren’t for Brexit, the British would have had to live with a ban on eight of the best tea kettles and nine of the best toasters in England to meet emissions targets. Globalization isn’t good for a lot of us.”

Is that true about the kettles etc or rubbish? You might laugh but there is a true story somewhere about the EU limiting the power of appliances (I will dig it out if absolutely necessary).

I wouldn't mind but a toaster will use the same amount of energy either way to brown a piece of toast - a half power toaster will need twice as long and use the same amount of energy in any case.

If they didn't have to heat and light so many EU buildings or have expensive second homes each that would save some energy. .(sorry a cheap shot I couldn't resist)
 
Is that true about the kettles etc or rubbish? You might laugh but there is a true story somewhere about the EU limiting the power of appliances (I will dig it out if absolutely necessary).

I wouldn't mind but a toaster will use the same amount of energy either way to brown a piece of toast - a half power toaster will need twice as long and use the same amount of energy in any case.

If they didn't have to heat and light so many EU buildings or have expensive second homes each that would save some energy. .(sorry a cheap shot I couldn't resist)

"First they came for the toasters, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a toaster.

Then they came for the high-powered tea kettles, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a high-powered tea kettle."

I was laughing despite myself but also honestly wondering, at the same time. i expect this is some minor appliance regulation blown vastly out of proportion if not falsified... but I wanted to check, just in case.
 
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