Enner Valencia

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I'd keep him only as a 3rd backup or something, and even then I wouldn't pay the £12m they want.

Partly because I can't afford a footballer.....

As an impact sub, we could have worse, but 12 million for an impact sub?

Again, if Koeman has a plan to barter them down a bit then fair enough, but I honestly think it'd be better to either get someone better if we're going to spend that much, give DCL or Lookman more of a chance or look to get someone out of contract in the summer

I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to spend a bit more and go for someone like Zaha at Palace? Or have a go at signing that El Ghazi lad?

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

Sorry Charles Xavier I didn't know you could read minds

How's Cyclops? Is he still moping about because Jean is dead?

Would Scott ever change? Of course not.

How is what I'm expressing any different to your "mind reading" regards Naismith. Again you've made yourself hypocritical and bordering on a touch of xenophobia. You seem to overrate quite a bit of British/Irish crap and in this case you're undervaluing Valencia for whatever reason since you don't feel my guess is representative of you. It's interesting that you cite Naismith as an example and not say Mirallas, who also has many many detractors and people wanting him sold. Naismith isn't exactly dominating or even doing THAT well at Norwich which any player who's of our quality would be expected to.


I'm sure you'll become outraged at that attribution of xenophobia to you, but just looking at the text you produce (as that's all I can/want to know about people on here) it seems like it could fit.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Keep him. Could be very usefull in europe

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

Joking aside @VentureBrosEFC I don't agree with your thesis at all, and think you're massively off the mark

Still, there's no point getting into a barney over it

We disagree and that's that, the place would be boring if everyone agreed

Bravo on bringing psycho analysis into the Enner Valencia thread though lol lol lol

I've said my piece before seeing this. I think we're both doing this. You're doing it re: Naismith.

I agree though there's no point in getting into a fight (guessing at "barney" with context)

But I will say that when I step ... (roll*) into Cerebro most of my assumptions are proven drivel.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Would Scott ever change? Of course not.

How is what I'm expressing any different to your "mind reading" regards Naismith. Again you've made yourself hypocritical and bordering on a touch of xenophobia. You seem to overrate quite a bit of British/Irish crap and in this case you're undervaluing Valencia for whatever reason since you don't feel my guess is representative of you. It's interesting that you cite Naismith as an example and not say Mirallas, who also has many many detractors and people wanting him sold. Naismith isn't exactly dominating or even doing THAT well at Norwich which any player who's of our quality would be expected to.


I'm sure you'll become outraged at that attribution of xenophobia to you, but just looking at the text you produce (as that's all I can/want to know about people on here) it seems like it could fit.

The difference with the Naismith point is that isn't based on me assuming what people are thinking or psycho analysing posters reasoning for not wanting the club to spend 12 million on a player who'll be little more than back up at best

If you go and read the Naismith thread, you'll see people queuing up to demand he be sold. There's no ambiguity there, most of those posters were saying he wasn't good enough. You don't need to take a psychic leap there, you can see people's reasoning because they are exhibiting it

My point is this, Enner has done no better than Naisy did, in fact you could argue he's done worse, I mean where's Enner's hat trick against Chelsea for instance? So if Naisy wasn't good enough for us when we were crap under Martinez and going nowhere, how on Earth is Valencia good enough now when we're aspiring to reach higher?

I'm prepared to take the anti-Naisy brigade at face value, they didn't think he was "all that", and I'll do the anti-Enner crowd the same courtesy

To repeat, I'm not saying he's awful, but I don't think he's that good either. This has nothing to do whatsoever with me being disappointed that he came in late in the window. I know my own mind and I know what I'm basing my opinions on

You're wrong in my eyes, massively off the mark

 

[4737carlin]

Do you really think he's going to go in for him?

I just don't see it, unless he's planning to play hard ball and get West Ham to knock the price down

Yeah i do, were in the Europa league, we need to make the squad bigger, to do that means several players around the 12m region, dosent mean we wont also buy some bigger names, but I do think he will take him in the summer.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Yeah i do, were in the Europa league, we need to make the squad bigger, to do that means several players around the 12m region, dosent mean we wont also buy some bigger names, but I do think he will take him in the summer.

If he does then I'll obviously give Enner my full support

Walsh must surely be able to find better for cheaper though? Or better for only marginally more?

Again, if he was half that I wouldn't be that bothered

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Send him back to West Ham.

In a wooden crate or a big cardboard box?

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

The difference with the Naismith point is that isn't based on me assuming what people are thinking or psycho analysing posters reasoning for not wanting the club to spend 12 million on a player who'll be little more than back up at best

If you go and read the Naismith thread, you'll see people queuing up to demand he be sold. There's no ambiguity there, most of those posters were saying he wasn't good enough. You don't need to take a psychic leap there, you can see people's reasoning because they are exhibiting it

My point is this, Enner has done no better than Naisy did, in fact you could argue he's done worse, I mean where's Enner's hat trick against Chelsea for instance? So if Naisy wasn't good enough for us when we were crap under Martinez and going nowhere, how on Earth is Valencia good enough now when we're aspiring to reach higher?

I'm prepared to take the anti-Naisy brigade at face value, they didn't think he was "all that", and I'll do the anti-Enner crowd the same courtesy

To repeat, I'm not saying he's awful, but I don't think he's that good either. This has nothing to do whatsoever with me being disappointed that he came in late in the window. I know my own mind and I know what I'm basing my opinions on

You're wrong in my eyes, massively off the mark

There was no difference in your Naismith point. If I remember correctly you've on multiple occasions said that because Duffy/Naismith/(insert "underrated" British/Irish player here) wasn't an "exotic" name they've been undervalued/overlooked.

In any case I'll take your point as stated here. I would counter that I feel if Valencia had been used more, especially in a starting berth, he'd have a far better ratio of statistics (if that's how you're going to value things). It's not worthless mentioning our differing styles of play under the different managers as well. Regardless, Naismith only got 18 in 108 games. Enner has just had his 18th with only four starts and has three goals. I hardly think that the sample sizes match, again if you're only going by stats with regards to productivity.

For me, and we can draw a line here if you like or keep going as long as the mods allow it, he is very much worth the 12m as a squad option for the league or starter for the early rounds of the Europa league, especially after we avoided a 30m squad option in Moussa Sissoko.

 

[tadpole]

Do you really think he's going to go in for him?

Well, he did start today. And remember how ruthless Koeman was dropping Deulofeu before he left us.

You may say Koeman didn't have a lot of options, particularly if he thought Mirallas deserved to be benched after recent performances. But the lack of options now is also an argument why Valencia should stay, because we'll need options need season, and Koeman's already said he thinks too many changes are not a good thing.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

There was no difference in your Naismith point. If I remember correctly you've on multiple occasions said that because Duffy/Naismith/(insert "underrated" British/Irish player here) wasn't an "exotic" name they've been undervalued/overlooked.

In any case I'll take your point as stated here. I would counter that I feel if Valencia had been used more, especially in a starting berth, he'd have a far better ratio of statistics (if that's how you're going to value things). It's not worthless mentioning our differing styles of play under the different managers as well. Regardless, Naismith only got 18 in 108 games. Enner has just had his 18th with only four starts and has three goals. I hardly think that the sample sizes match, again if you're only going by stats with regards to productivity.

For me, and we can draw a line here if you like or keep going as long as the mods allow it, he is very much worth the 12m as a squad option for the league or starter for the early rounds of the Europa league, especially after we avoided a 30m squad option in Moussa Sissoko.

All I'll say to close is that I think you're wrong and I think the fact you've gone to the Irish/Scottish well more than once makes me take the position that you have what can only constitute as a threadbare argument so you've decided you're going to play the man and not the issue

Yes, I said the Charles Xavier line, but then I came back with a serious post afterwards and confirmed it was intended as a joke. You seem to keep pressing the "Mikey likes Scottish football LOL" button in an attempt to deflect and also have a go at me at as a person, which is exceedingly cheap and also beneath you

Whether people will give a foreign player more of a chance than a British one isn't the issue here, and again it's deflecting to claim it is. I'm not denying I've said that in the past, and, even though there could be a nugget of truth to it, I accept that it would have been wrong to me to ascribe opinions to people in the past if they had not yet displayed said opinions themselves, and I'm happy to say that I haven't done that for a while, as we all age and (hopefully) get smarter

That doesn't change the fact that you are now doing likewise and, as I was back then, you are wrong to do so. There is no way you can know what people are thinking here, and you've shown me nothing to suggest your take carries any water. If we'd signed Valencia at the start of August and the rest of the window had gone exactly the same, I'm certain that this thread would be exactly as it is, because I've seen nothing in 154 pages here to suggest that the lateness of his signing had anything to do with people considering he isn't worth 12 million

You've got no basis for your point whatsoever. You have no evidence to support it and it ignores the basic truth that is on display here, which is that Valencia just hasn't been that good, although I concede he's hardly been awful either. Yes, he could probably do a job off the bench, and yes he's had some decent appearances this season here and there. Again, if he was coming in for far less, I wouldn't be that miffed as he's a hard worker and there's always a chance he could make something happen when coming on, even if technically I think he's lacking and he's not worth more than 6 million at most in my eyes. He huffs and puffs and puts a shift in, but we'll never get above where we are with him as a starter and he's overpriced as back up at 12 million

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, because you're clearly entrenched in your opinion and you seem more interested in discussing how much I like Scottish football rather than the issue at hand. I was at the match today, without the luxury of a replay as you have, and if that cross from Enner was spot on then fair enough, but from the main stand it looked poor, and even with that he still didn't do that good today, and I thought DCL on the opposite wing did just as good if not better a job than he did, coming close as he did to getting a goal

There we go, said my piece, all the best to you

 

[roy vernon]

Not good enough at the reported asking price. Take a punt on him for around 5 million but not much more than that. For the reported 12 million there have to be better options.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Not good enough at the reported asking price. Take a punt on him for around 5 million but not much more than that. For the reported 12 million there have to be better options.

Bloody Hell Roy we actually agree on something!

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

All I'll say to close is that I think you're wrong and I think the fact you've gone to the Irish/Scottish well more than once makes me take the position that you have what can only constitute as a threadbare argument so you've decided you're going to play the man and not the issue

Yes, I said the Charles Xavier line, but then I came back with a serious post afterwards and confirmed it was intended as a joke. You seem to keep pressing the "Mikey likes Scottish football LOL" button in an attempt to deflect and also have a go at me at as a person, which is exceedingly cheap and also beneath you

Whether people will give a foreign player more of a chance than a British one isn't the issue here, and again it's deflecting to claim it is. I'm not denying I've said that in the past, and, even though there could be a nugget of truth to it, I accept that it would have been wrong to me to ascribe opinions to people in the past if they had not yet displayed said opinions themselves, and I'm happy to say that I haven't done that for a while, as we all age and (hopefully) get smarter

That doesn't change the fact that you are now doing likewise and, as I was back then, you are wrong to do so. There is no way you can know what people are thinking here, and you've shown me nothing to suggest your take carries any water. If we'd signed Valencia at the start of August and the rest of the window had gone exactly the same, I'm certain that this thread would be exactly as it is, because I've seen nothing in 154 pages here to suggest that the lateness of his signing had anything to do with people considering he isn't worth 12 million

You've got no basis for your point whatsoever. You have no evidence to support it and it ignores the basic truth that is on display here, which is that Valencia just hasn't been that good, although I concede he's hardly been awful either. Yes, he could probably do a job off the bench, and yes he's had some decent appearances this season here and there. Again, if he was coming in for far less, I wouldn't be that miffed as he's a hard worker and there's always a chance he could make something happen when coming on, even if technically I think he's lacking and he's not worth more than 6 million at most in my eyes. He huffs and puffs and puts a shift in, but we'll never get above where we are with him as a starter and he's overpriced as back up at 12 million

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, because you're clearly entrenched in your opinion and you seem more interested in discussing how much I like Scottish football rather than the issue at hand. I was at the match today, without the luxury of a replay as you have, and if that cross from Enner was spot on then fair enough, but from the main stand it looked poor, and even with that he still didn't do that good today, and I thought DCL on the opposite wing did just as good if not better a job than he did, coming close as he did to getting a goal

There we go, said my piece, all the best to you

Well that was a load of ...

My "deflection" is based on the fact that you and I and everyone on here are doing this (reading into other people's intentions) almost constantly. For you to state that you have matured to a level above that is preposterous. You and everyone else on here rarely has any "basis" for any comment made. Let's take the sentence immediately after your crying about having no basis.

"You have no evidence to support it and it ignores the basic truth that is on display here, which is that Valencia just hasn't been that good"

I actually did give you evidence to show that he was as good if not potentially much better than Naismith, in stats as that's what you cited as your "evidence", but congratulations on side stepping that. Beyond that how can you hold your previous view, which I would characterize as a cautious posting style and not putting yourself out there with claims, and then talk as though you hold exclusive access (or you along with those that agree with you) to the truth, in this case being that Valencia isn't good enough for 12m as a squad option. You need to understand what you're saying previous if you're going to try and make out as though you go about posting in an academic fashion as you've contradicted yourself multiple times (I'm sure you'll deny it though).

I also appreciate your implication that you had a better opinion of things as you "went the match" because if you cared about establishing whether that cross was spot on or if it got deflected you could've taken the minute or two it would've costed you to find and watch it.

In all honesty your tone in all of this smacks of pretension with a serious case of some weird egoistic blindness at the way you've entangled yourself within your own arguing.

Have a good day Mikey


Also I took the Professor X joke in stride and made a self deprecating remark off the back of it.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Well that was a load of ...

My "deflection" is based on the fact that you and I and everyone on here are doing this (reading into other people's intentions) almost constantly. For you to state that you have matured to a level above that is preposterous. You and everyone else on here rarely has any "basis" for any comment made. Let's take the sentence immediately after your crying about having no basis.

"You have no evidence to support it and it ignores the basic truth that is on display here, which is that Valencia just hasn't been that good"

I actually did give you evidence to show that he was as good if not potentially much better than Naismith, in stats as that's what you cited as your "evidence", but congratulations on side stepping that. Beyond that how can you hold your previous view, which I would characterize as a cautious posting style and not putting yourself out there with claims, and then talk as though you hold exclusive access (or you along with those that agree with you) to the truth, in this case being that Valencia isn't good enough for 12m as a squad option. You need to understand what you're saying previous if you're going to try and make out as though you go about posting in an academic fashion as you've contradicted yourself multiple times (I'm sure you'll deny it though).

I also appreciate your implication that you had a better opinion of things as you "went the match" because if you cared about establishing whether that cross was spot on or if it got deflected you could've taken the minute or two it would've costed you to find and watch it.

In all honesty your tone in all of this smacks of pretension with a serious case of some weird egoistic blindness at the way you've entangled yourself within your own arguing.

Have a good day Mikey


Also I took the Professor X joke in stride and made a self deprecating remark off the back of it.

I just want to address the part in bold, as that wasn't what I was trying to do at all

I was merely pointing out that as I was at the match, I didn't have access to a replay and thus could only judge the cross on what I saw in person, you had a replay so you could see I was wrong. There was a suggestion from yourself that I was picking on Enner by saying he did a bad cross when he didn't. From my view, it looked like a bad cross and when you said the replay showed it was a good one I took you at face value and removed it as a criticism

There was no suggestion on my part that my opinion was "better" than yours, just merely an explanation as to why I gave the opinion I did

The rest is what it is, but I wanted that to be clear, because it would have been a scummy move on my part to suggest someone who wasn't at the match had a less valid opinion on something, unless it's about something the TV cameras don't see that you need to be an eye witness for, or it's about someone having a direct go at the actual crowd over something that perhaps isn't fair because there were mitigating factors that you'd only appreciate if you were in the crowd itself

Cheers