ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

[MikeH72]

Stevie has been getting some stick, but his defenders are hitting back........

From the Gerrard Thread..

"Quote from: RedBeast on Today at 01:22:23 PM
Because the 433 allows the two midfielders to get forward, the 433 allows 5 players to take up attacking positions. As the 433 (as we play it) has the two advanced midfielders pressing higher up the pitch, it means that Gerrard is left isolated should the press be broken. He then lacks the short area quickness to cover. Once he is beaten, the defence are exposed. In a 4231, if he is beaten there is generally another midfielder to cover which means that the defence are less exposed.

I don't think he's expected to 'cover' in that situation, he's expected to 'delay'. As the opposition breaks, he's the central player in a back three. Infact he - or Henderson - still is, if we've been in possession, pushed up and 'rotated' the 2-1 to 1-2 in the course of building an attack.

The difference in the 2 is that during more sustained periods of defensive shape, he has much more lateral movement to make (and vertical, pressing) and will need to track runners (which, at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2).


The upshot being, if the manager wanted to create a role purely to protect Gerrard from onerous defensive duties, it would be the '1', not the '2'. But in any shape, there are numerous players not doing their jobs, or doing them well enough. This thread simply seems to work on the preconception that it's just Gerrard or 'the' role. Even when we don't play 'the' role."


See...that's how it works....and we just thought he was crap and kept slipping over

 

[Ihaters]

Stevie has been getting some stick, but his defenders are hitting back........

From the Gerrard Thread..

"Quote from: RedBeast on Today at 01:22:23 PM
Because the 433 allows the two midfielders to get forward, the 433 allows 5 players to take up attacking positions. As the 433 (as we play it) has the two advanced midfielders pressing higher up the pitch, it means that Gerrard is left isolated should the press be broken. He then lacks the short area quickness to cover. Once he is beaten, the defence are exposed. In a 4231, if he is beaten there is generally another midfielder to cover which means that the defence are less exposed.

I don't think he's expected to 'cover' in that situation, he's expected to 'delay'. As the opposition breaks, he's the central player in a back three. Infact he - or Henderson - still is, if we've been in possession, pushed up and 'rotated' the 2-1 to 1-2 in the course of building an attack.

The difference in the 2 is that during more sustained periods of defensive shape, he has much more lateral movement to make (and vertical, pressing) and will need to track runners (which, at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2).


The upshot being, if the manager wanted to create a role purely to protect Gerrard from onerous defensive duties, it would be the '1', not the '2'. But in any shape, there are numerous players not doing their jobs, or doing them well enough. This thread simply seems to work on the preconception that it's just Gerrard or 'the' role. Even when we don't play 'the' role."


See...that's how it works....and we just thought he was crap and kept slipping over

...at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2...

Seems he's actually said that before and thought it was so worth inflicting on real life people... he'll do it again.

 

[canuckblue]

...at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2...

Seems he's actually said that before and thought it was so worth inflicting on real life people... he'll do it again.

Straight out of Lawrence Welk -- "and a 1, and a 2..."

 

[peteblue]

@davek .......if ever you want to say that Osman is crap or Roberto got it wrong, from now on you must follow the attached from RAWK which sets out how fans should post their views....... I think he may be American.........



Re: Brendan Rodgers - Liverpool Manager (ours to keep - or at least till 2018)
« Reply #8577 on: Today at 02:18:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePoolMan on Today at 07:43:13 AM
It's beginning to look more and more like Spurs after they sold Bale. Rodgers has to get the wheels fixed back on ASAP before the whole caboodle careens off the precipice (to overextend the metaphor even further)...

This is exactly what I mean. Here is what you have done:

1) Make an analogy about our team and another from last year (based on a poor stretch).
2) Demand Rodgers "fix" what is going wrong and be held to account immediately
3) Or everything goes to [Poor language removed]

This is not how committed supporters should behave (as some sort of therapeutic fecal venting system, unexamined. If a particular part of the game pisses you off, study it. Bring it in here and discuss it like an adult. Maybe even, identify some issues that continue to plague the team because of our manager. Here are two examples that you might have some reasonable evidence with:

A) Defensive Set Pieces have been a particularly disturbing three year trend (but the board here needs data) -- how about looking it up
B) Trend of opponent (runners) getting through the midfield unmarked - see Dan A postings
C) Or come up with a specific trend of performance found in or grounded in the game itself (no subjective [Poor language removed] here)

However, by placing blame at the gaffer's door when you have little understanding of the coaching process (other than "it should be fixed by now" - like some indolent child wanting dinner because it is 30 minutes past the usual time is not helpful. No one need tell Brendan that he is accountable and responsible for the team's performance. He has decades of professional experience. He knows.

So, lets not turn what is wrong with you and your experience of watching Liverpool into something greater wrong with Brendan or the team. These are your worries and anxieties not his.

Lastly, the careening off the precipice or putting the wheels back on is nonsense. Rodgers is going to get back to Liverpool football the best way he knows -----> quick starts, dominate the ball, identify places within the defense to attack, and press the ball when not in possession, and work for the team. Defensive principles are embedded into each of these core objectives.

What you might do in the future when you want to offer a critique is break the game into their corresponding parts:

1) Psychological --- loss of Suarez (sorry Obi), or resiliency after Everton, or coping with a drop in form
2) Tactical ---------- decision-making in the final third, why we are giving up restart goals, or losing midfield battles
3) Technical ------- why is Phillipe's technique off in the final third pass? or what is wrong with Mario's positioning in the box (tactical too)
4) Physical ------ why so many knee injuries, how has the loss of Can, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Johnson, and Lallana affected the group

But do not come in here calling for the manager to perform or else. It helps no one, and shows your ignorance. At best, you bring up an issue that the team already is aware of and now you add excess emotion to a system that is performance based. Winners do not spend much time looking down at the precipice saying it I have to put the wheels back.

Instead, they get up, identify specifically what is going on. Get the team on board. Stay positive and work towards the next goal. When things do not go their way, they do not panick, they compose themselves and carry on. I would hope our supporters would resemble this too.

 

[wandyr79]

Stevie has been getting some stick, but his defenders are hitting back........

From the Gerrard Thread..

"Quote from: RedBeast on Today at 01:22:23 PM
Because the 433 allows the two midfielders to get forward, the 433 allows 5 players to take up attacking positions. As the 433 (as we play it) has the two advanced midfielders pressing higher up the pitch, it means that Gerrard is left isolated should the press be broken. He then lacks the short area quickness to cover. Once he is beaten, the defence are exposed. In a 4231, if he is beaten there is generally another midfielder to cover which means that the defence are less exposed.

I don't think he's expected to 'cover' in that situation, he's expected to 'delay'. As the opposition breaks, he's the central player in a back three. Infact he - or Henderson - still is, if we've been in possession, pushed up and 'rotated' the 2-1 to 1-2 in the course of building an attack.

The difference in the 2 is that during more sustained periods of defensive shape, he has much more lateral movement to make (and vertical, pressing) and will need to track runners (which, at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2).


The upshot being, if the manager wanted to create a role purely to protect Gerrard from onerous defensive duties, it would be the '1', not the '2'. But in any shape, there are numerous players not doing their jobs, or doing them well enough. This thread simply seems to work on the preconception that it's just Gerrard or 'the' role. Even when we don't play 'the' role."


See...that's how it works....and we just thought he was crap and kept slipping over

It is very hard to understand what they are on about but I have a feeling that they are saying that Liverpool should adopt the very tactics that Everton play.

 

[peteblue]

It is very hard to understand what they are on about but I have a feeling that they are saying that Liverpool should adopt the very tactics that Everton play.

The 1 or the 2 ?............

 

[wandyr79]

The 1 or the 2 ?............

I think the role of the 1 in 1-2 or a 2-1.

 

[Gotagotmug]

@davek .......if ever you want to say that Osman is crap or Roberto got it wrong, from now on you must follow the attached from RAWK which sets out how fans should post their views....... I think he may be American.........



Re: Brendan Rodgers - Liverpool Manager (ours to keep - or at least till 2018)
« Reply #8577 on: Today at 02:18:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePoolMan on Today at 07:43:13 AM
It's beginning to look more and more like Spurs after they sold Bale. Rodgers has to get the wheels fixed back on ASAP before the whole caboodle careens off the precipice (to overextend the metaphor even further)...

This is exactly what I mean. Here is what you have done:

1) Make an analogy about our team and another from last year (based on a poor stretch).
2) Demand Rodgers "fix" what is going wrong and be held to account immediately
3) Or everything goes to [Poor language removed]

This is not how committed supporters should behave (as some sort of therapeutic fecal venting system, unexamined. If a particular part of the game pisses you off, study it. Bring it in here and discuss it like an adult. Maybe even, identify some issues that continue to plague the team because of our manager. Here are two examples that you might have some reasonable evidence with:

A) Defensive Set Pieces have been a particularly disturbing three year trend (but the board here needs data) -- how about looking it up
B) Trend of opponent (runners) getting through the midfield unmarked - see Dan A postings
C) Or come up with a specific trend of performance found in or grounded in the game itself (no subjective [Poor language removed] here)

However, by placing blame at the gaffer's door when you have little understanding of the coaching process (other than "it should be fixed by now" - like some indolent child wanting dinner because it is 30 minutes past the usual time is not helpful. No one need tell Brendan that he is accountable and responsible for the team's performance. He has decades of professional experience. He knows.

So, lets not turn what is wrong with you and your experience of watching Liverpool into something greater wrong with Brendan or the team. These are your worries and anxieties not his.

Lastly, the careening off the precipice or putting the wheels back on is nonsense. Rodgers is going to get back to Liverpool football the best way he knows -----> quick starts, dominate the ball, identify places within the defense to attack, and press the ball when not in possession, and work for the team. Defensive principles are embedded into each of these core objectives.

What you might do in the future when you want to offer a critique is break the game into their corresponding parts:

1) Psychological --- loss of Suarez (sorry Obi), or resiliency after Everton, or coping with a drop in form
2) Tactical ---------- decision-making in the final third, why we are giving up restart goals, or losing midfield battles
3) Technical ------- why is Phillipe's technique off in the final third pass? or what is wrong with Mario's positioning in the box (tactical too)
4) Physical ------ why so many knee injuries, how has the loss of Can, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Johnson, and Lallana affected the group

But do not come in here calling for the manager to perform or else. It helps no one, and shows your ignorance. At best, you bring up an issue that the team already is aware of and now you add excess emotion to a system that is performance based. Winners do not spend much time looking down at the precipice saying it I have to put the wheels back.

Instead, they get up, identify specifically what is going on. Get the team on board. Stay positive and work towards the next goal. When things do not go their way, they do not panick, they compose themselves and carry on. I would hope our supporters would resemble this too.

Individually I understand all those words, but when you put them together, that lad is making no sense

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Stevie has been getting some stick, but his defenders are hitting back........

From the Gerrard Thread..

"Quote from: RedBeast on Today at 01:22:23 PM
Because the 433 allows the two midfielders to get forward, the 433 allows 5 players to take up attacking positions. As the 433 (as we play it) has the two advanced midfielders pressing higher up the pitch, it means that Gerrard is left isolated should the press be broken. He then lacks the short area quickness to cover. Once he is beaten, the defence are exposed. In a 4231, if he is beaten there is generally another midfielder to cover which means that the defence are less exposed.

I don't think he's expected to 'cover' in that situation, he's expected to 'delay'. As the opposition breaks, he's the central player in a back three. Infact he - or Henderson - still is, if we've been in possession, pushed up and 'rotated' the 2-1 to 1-2 in the course of building an attack.

The difference in the 2 is that during more sustained periods of defensive shape, he has much more lateral movement to make (and vertical, pressing) and will need to track runners (which, at the risk of repeating myself from older discussions, should be the role of the 2, not the 1, in the 1-2).


The upshot being, if the manager wanted to create a role purely to protect Gerrard from onerous defensive duties, it would be the '1', not the '2'. But in any shape, there are numerous players not doing their jobs, or doing them well enough. This thread simply seems to work on the preconception that it's just Gerrard or 'the' role. Even when we don't play 'the' role."


See...that's how it works....and we just thought he was crap and kept slipping over

He could have saved himself the bother, his legs have gone, would have sufficed.

Helmet

 

[davek]

@davek .......if ever you want to say that Osman is crap or Roberto got it wrong, from now on you must follow the attached from RAWK which sets out how fans should post their views....... I think he may be American.........



Re: Brendan Rodgers - Liverpool Manager (ours to keep - or at least till 2018)
« Reply #8577 on: Today at 02:18:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePoolMan on Today at 07:43:13 AM
It's beginning to look more and more like Spurs after they sold Bale. Rodgers has to get the wheels fixed back on ASAP before the whole caboodle careens off the precipice (to overextend the metaphor even further)...

This is exactly what I mean. Here is what you have done:

1) Make an analogy about our team and another from last year (based on a poor stretch).
2) Demand Rodgers "fix" what is going wrong and be held to account immediately
3) Or everything goes to [Poor language removed]

This is not how committed supporters should behave (as some sort of therapeutic fecal venting system, unexamined. If a particular part of the game pisses you off, study it. Bring it in here and discuss it like an adult. Maybe even, identify some issues that continue to plague the team because of our manager. Here are two examples that you might have some reasonable evidence with:

A) Defensive Set Pieces have been a particularly disturbing three year trend (but the board here needs data) -- how about looking it up
B) Trend of opponent (runners) getting through the midfield unmarked - see Dan A postings
C) Or come up with a specific trend of performance found in or grounded in the game itself (no subjective [Poor language removed] here)

However, by placing blame at the gaffer's door when you have little understanding of the coaching process (other than "it should be fixed by now" - like some indolent child wanting dinner because it is 30 minutes past the usual time is not helpful. No one need tell Brendan that he is accountable and responsible for the team's performance. He has decades of professional experience. He knows.

So, lets not turn what is wrong with you and your experience of watching Liverpool into something greater wrong with Brendan or the team. These are your worries and anxieties not his.

Lastly, the careening off the precipice or putting the wheels back on is nonsense. Rodgers is going to get back to Liverpool football the best way he knows -----> quick starts, dominate the ball, identify places within the defense to attack, and press the ball when not in possession, and work for the team. Defensive principles are embedded into each of these core objectives.

What you might do in the future when you want to offer a critique is break the game into their corresponding parts:

1) Psychological --- loss of Suarez (sorry Obi), or resiliency after Everton, or coping with a drop in form
2) Tactical ---------- decision-making in the final third, why we are giving up restart goals, or losing midfield battles
3) Technical ------- why is Phillipe's technique off in the final third pass? or what is wrong with Mario's positioning in the box (tactical too)
4) Physical ------ why so many knee injuries, how has the loss of Can, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Johnson, and Lallana affected the group

But do not come in here calling for the manager to perform or else. It helps no one, and shows your ignorance. At best, you bring up an issue that the team already is aware of and now you add excess emotion to a system that is performance based. Winners do not spend much time looking down at the precipice saying it I have to put the wheels back.

Instead, they get up, identify specifically what is going on. Get the team on board. Stay positive and work towards the next goal. When things do not go their way, they do not panick, they compose themselves and carry on. I would hope our supporters would resemble this too.

Ha Ha Ha.

"What you might do in the future...". Mr Pompous.


There's only one short 'critique' that need be given over there: 'We haven't got Suarez. We have to rely on 'the gaffer' instead. So we're utterly ******.'

 

[Minimeister]

@davek .......if ever you want to say that Osman is crap or Roberto got it wrong, from now on you must follow the attached from RAWK which sets out how fans should post their views....... I think he may be American.........



Re: Brendan Rodgers - Liverpool Manager (ours to keep - or at least till 2018)
« Reply #8577 on: Today at 02:18:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePoolMan on Today at 07:43:13 AM
It's beginning to look more and more like Spurs after they sold Bale. Rodgers has to get the wheels fixed back on ASAP before the whole caboodle careens off the precipice (to overextend the metaphor even further)...

This is exactly what I mean. Here is what you have done:

1) Make an analogy about our team and another from last year (based on a poor stretch).
2) Demand Rodgers "fix" what is going wrong and be held to account immediately
3) Or everything goes to [Poor language removed]

This is not how committed supporters should behave (as some sort of therapeutic fecal venting system, unexamined. If a particular part of the game pisses you off, study it. Bring it in here and discuss it like an adult. Maybe even, identify some issues that continue to plague the team because of our manager. Here are two examples that you might have some reasonable evidence with:

A) Defensive Set Pieces have been a particularly disturbing three year trend (but the board here needs data) -- how about looking it up
B) Trend of opponent (runners) getting through the midfield unmarked - see Dan A postings
C) Or come up with a specific trend of performance found in or grounded in the game itself (no subjective [Poor language removed] here)

However, by placing blame at the gaffer's door when you have little understanding of the coaching process (other than "it should be fixed by now" - like some indolent child wanting dinner because it is 30 minutes past the usual time is not helpful. No one need tell Brendan that he is accountable and responsible for the team's performance. He has decades of professional experience. He knows.

So, lets not turn what is wrong with you and your experience of watching Liverpool into something greater wrong with Brendan or the team. These are your worries and anxieties not his.

Lastly, the careening off the precipice or putting the wheels back on is nonsense. Rodgers is going to get back to Liverpool football the best way he knows -----> quick starts, dominate the ball, identify places within the defense to attack, and press the ball when not in possession, and work for the team. Defensive principles are embedded into each of these core objectives.

What you might do in the future when you want to offer a critique is break the game into their corresponding parts:

1) Psychological --- loss of Suarez (sorry Obi), or resiliency after Everton, or coping with a drop in form
2) Tactical ---------- decision-making in the final third, why we are giving up restart goals, or losing midfield battles
3) Technical ------- why is Phillipe's technique off in the final third pass? or what is wrong with Mario's positioning in the box (tactical too)
4) Physical ------ why so many knee injuries, how has the loss of Can, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Johnson, and Lallana affected the group

But do not come in here calling for the manager to perform or else. It helps no one, and shows your ignorance. At best, you bring up an issue that the team already is aware of and now you add excess emotion to a system that is performance based. Winners do not spend much time looking down at the precipice saying it I have to put the wheels back.

Instead, they get up, identify specifically what is going on. Get the team on board. Stay positive and work towards the next goal. When things do not go their way, they do not panick, they compose themselves and carry on. I would hope our supporters would resemble this too.

I bet that bloke doesn't escape a punch or three on his nose in his lifetime.

 

[hullefc]

I think the role of the 1 in 1-2 or a 2-1.

I think it is the role that is to blame.

Edit: sorry got confused with all the waffle from the RS on Rawk.

 

[Dell Boy]

Ha Ha Ha.

"What you might do in the future...". Mr Pompous.


There's only one short 'critique' that need be given over there: 'We haven't got Suarez. We have to rely on 'the gaffer' instead. So we're utterly ******.'

Mr Dave K your presence is requested in the Ale House please.

Your groupies need to know how you pronounce your username and also whether you actually look like Gandalf in real life or not.

@1966efc
@Hellerad
@Groucho
@Bruce Wayne
@Elong
@Prevenger17
@mezzrow
@ilikecheese
@Kurt
@Jamo Martinez
@Tramps_mate

 

[Minimeister]

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=313932.80

Some gems in here

its wishful thinking from fans from our rival clubs who are frightened at the speed and brilliance of our revival. They're really terrified by it, and they'll have good cause to be scared next season too.

We're coming Mr Ferguson and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[L4Everton]

@davek .......if ever you want to say that Osman is crap or Roberto got it wrong, from now on you must follow the attached from RAWK which sets out how fans should post their views....... I think he may be American.........



Re: Brendan Rodgers - Liverpool Manager (ours to keep - or at least till 2018)
« Reply #8577 on: Today at 02:18:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePoolMan on Today at 07:43:13 AM
It's beginning to look more and more like Spurs after they sold Bale. Rodgers has to get the wheels fixed back on ASAP before the whole caboodle careens off the precipice (to overextend the metaphor even further)...

This is exactly what I mean. Here is what you have done:

1) Make an analogy about our team and another from last year (based on a poor stretch).
2) Demand Rodgers "fix" what is going wrong and be held to account immediately
3) Or everything goes to [Poor language removed]

This is not how committed supporters should behave (as some sort of therapeutic fecal venting system, unexamined. If a particular part of the game pisses you off, study it. Bring it in here and discuss it like an adult. Maybe even, identify some issues that continue to plague the team because of our manager. Here are two examples that you might have some reasonable evidence with:

A) Defensive Set Pieces have been a particularly disturbing three year trend (but the board here needs data) -- how about looking it up
B) Trend of opponent (runners) getting through the midfield unmarked - see Dan A postings
C) Or come up with a specific trend of performance found in or grounded in the game itself (no subjective [Poor language removed] here)

However, by placing blame at the gaffer's door when you have little understanding of the coaching process (other than "it should be fixed by now" - like some indolent child wanting dinner because it is 30 minutes past the usual time is not helpful. No one need tell Brendan that he is accountable and responsible for the team's performance. He has decades of professional experience. He knows.

So, lets not turn what is wrong with you and your experience of watching Liverpool into something greater wrong with Brendan or the team. These are your worries and anxieties not his.

Lastly, the careening off the precipice or putting the wheels back on is nonsense. Rodgers is going to get back to Liverpool football the best way he knows -----> quick starts, dominate the ball, identify places within the defense to attack, and press the ball when not in possession, and work for the team. Defensive principles are embedded into each of these core objectives.

What you might do in the future when you want to offer a critique is break the game into their corresponding parts:

1) Psychological --- loss of Suarez (sorry Obi), or resiliency after Everton, or coping with a drop in form
2) Tactical ---------- decision-making in the final third, why we are giving up restart goals, or losing midfield battles
3) Technical ------- why is Phillipe's technique off in the final third pass? or what is wrong with Mario's positioning in the box (tactical too)
4) Physical ------ why so many knee injuries, how has the loss of Can, Allen, Sturridge, Flanagan, Johnson, and Lallana affected the group

But do not come in here calling for the manager to perform or else. It helps no one, and shows your ignorance. At best, you bring up an issue that the team already is aware of and now you add excess emotion to a system that is performance based. Winners do not spend much time looking down at the precipice saying it I have to put the wheels back.

Instead, they get up, identify specifically what is going on. Get the team on board. Stay positive and work towards the next goal. When things do not go their way, they do not panick, they compose themselves and carry on. I would hope our supporters would resemble this too.

Christ trying to read that hurt. What happened, did he tear up a paper and bang the words onto the internet as they fell?