Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon
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tsubaki
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er - compared to what it was like before, and especially to its neighbours, Cuba is one of the better run states and economies in Latin America. Also I am not sure how Cuba could ever have been "far more prosperous than Chile".
Don't fear positive change. Longing for days gone by that frankly weren't as good as you remember isn't healthy.
Clint Planet
Utter Cad.
Damned right. Keep pushing forward, keep fighting for equality and social justice. Ukip are a blind alley.
Clint Planet
Utter Cad.
Cuba would have been more prosperous but for the ideologically-motivated economic blockade by the USA (and let us never forget how vile the US-backed Somoza regime was).
abelard
Player Valuation: £35m
Cuba = there is no doubt that the Revolution has been a disappointment where it matters most, in the eyes of its constituents. But it is quite a bit more complex than your "four legs bad, two legs good" synopsis. Cuba's accomplishments are not inconsiderable, including health care and education that are the envy of Latin America (and large parts of the US, although ignorance sort of precludes any real envy). For much of the Cold War, Cuba outperformed the US in healthcare measures like infant mortality. Western Europeans used to visit routinely for medical tourism, and Cuban doctors are renowned across the region. Cuba also played a decisive role in dismantling apartheid in South Africa, despite the objections of the US and the Soviet Union. Nelson Mandela's first overseas visit was to Havana, something we don't include in the version of him we had to hastily assemble and sanitize after his accomplishments proved too remarkable to dismiss. They have also made great progress (though far from complete) in eliminating racism, where they are again well ahead of the rest of the region, and arguably the US for that matter. But, it is time for change.
One of Castro's more serious failures was never overcoming the legacy of the colonial cash-crop economy - after the US embargo, he had little choice but to turn to a different (albeit more generous and humane) patron, which did nothing to alleviate Cuba's historic monocultural sugar dependency. And when the collapse of the Soviets meant Russia was no longer inclined to charitably take in Cuban sugar, the "tragedy" was repeated as farce, this time with Venezuela. But if you talk to Cubans (as opposed to people who have lived in Miami for 50+ years), even the most anti-regime and reform-minded nonetheless take incredible pride in what they feel "they" (along with the Castros) have accomplished. the abiding fear is that economic reform will proceed along the usual American lines, that Cuba will end up just another second-rate Dominican Republic or Puerto Rican basketcase (a strong socialist base probably precludes a fate so dire as Haiti's), with even more dependency on overseas patrons, and none of the hard-fought dignity. Obama was able to persuade Raul by understanding and appealing to Cuban pride, and promising to allow reform based on indigenous capitalism, a la Vietnam, with no subservience to parasitic American corporate interests. his wisdom and political courage in this regard make Cuba one of his more notable accomplishments. whether this lasts in the age of Trump is a real concern.
Guatemala = Arbenz was not really a Marxist. this is much more of a retroactive designation to ex post facto justify his having been toppled at the CIA's behest. Unlike Allende, Arbenz possessed exactly the kind of wisdom you attribute to "successful capitalism." he embraced exactly the sort of land reform that the US would come to demand, where the stakes were higher, of allies in places like South Korea, Taiwan, or South Vietnam. but his enemies included the United Fruit Company (the original "Banana Republicans"), and in turn, the Dulles brothers (who sat on the board of directors), and in turn, the CIA. Guatemala was one of Eishenhower's most short-sighted lapses (along with Cuba, Iran, Indonesia etc), and it had a formative effect on convincing people like Castro of the need to prioritize revolutionary violence and purges ahead of due process. Or, at the very least, on convincing the anti-Batista opposition that Castro was necessary. cba to look up the exact quotation, but Castro, upon learning about Arbenz's plight, remarked something like "well of course we can't just surrender like Arbenz."
Chile = fair enough, if you're willing to yada yada the death squads and the disappeared and the fact that Pinochet had to be removed before the economic progress you refer to really took hold. I don't find Allende an especially convincing hand on the tiller, but Chileans did, in elections all observers recognized as democratic, so who am I (or the CIA) to judge.
Americans who can endorse things like nationalizing health care in America should ask themselves why the same policy ideas in, say, Latin America, produce the invariable urge to have Langley pick up the phone and dial its favourite Fort Benning-socialized generals to discuss how and where to bury the bodies. A not inconsiderable factor in the region's relative stability and development recently is that the end of the Cold War has made it far more difficult for Washington to justify exercising murderous veto-power on every Spanish-speaking would-be emulator of LBJ or Franklin Roosevelt.
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i realize i've already been banned in this thread for suggesting that fake news was relevant to donald trump, so if this post is a bridge too far, i accept the wisdom of moderation.
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The conscientious Dem hates is appalled by capitalism without empathy, and the conscientious Rep is appalled by social programs without accountability, but instead of working together for solutions we see both sides entitling their interests and end up with unchecked greed that fattens the few and bloated welfare programs that don't meet their aims.
abelard
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Somoza was Nicaragua, but point well-taken. it's wrong to suggest Cubans in the 1950s were choosing between what we now know Cuba to be like, and on the other hand a sort of imaginary Spanish Silicon Valley/Singapore, which everyone in Miami (or Orange County, to choose a different parallel) presumes would have magically but inevitably emerged, if only.
Castro emerged as a response to Batista, who was truly inept and awful, but who the US was perfectly content to sponsor unabated until forced when the rumblings from the mountains grew too loud to ignore. If we must, Batista should also be factored into any binary "league table."
And between life under Batista (or Somoza, or Pinochet), and life under Castro, I would choose Castro. The former embraced all of the latter's arbitrary and repressive security apparatuses, but without any of his very real and at least somewhat redeeming accomplishments.
Every national economy based on a single commodity seems to do the same
SNova
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I don't fear positive change.
My opinions are controversial and frankly they cause me a great deal of bother. It'd be much easier for me to be a liberal, but I'm not because my political beliefs are what I believe to be true.
Fighting for positive change and equality continues to be one of the hardest fights for humanity.
It is not easy at all to make positive change because people fear the unknown.
SNova
Player Valuation: £15m
"Positive change"
I think most people want positive change. They just have a different definitions for what they precieve as positive change.
SNova
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Well yeah, but I don't believe equality is a moral good or even worth striving for as a concept.
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