Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon

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If they dismiss it out of hand it kind of plays into Russia's hands ab little too. There is an agreement of co-operation dating back to Reagan era which allows for what Putin sugessted.

Mueller will have to be clever in how it plays out but you'd expect he expected something like this to happen.
Seems Bill Browder is not their only ask - and Trump called this proposal interesting!
 
Yeah we are considering selling while its so high and getting out while the going is good

Still got to buy somewhere else though. Our mortgage gets paid off in 18 months time, so once that goes, not really arsed what value the house is. If its still stupid money, then buying another place will be stupid money, if its worth squat, so will a new place.

Folk get way too invested in their house value in the UK.
 
Still got to buy somewhere else though. Our mortgage gets paid off in 18 months time, so once that goes, not really arsed what value the house is. If its still stupid money, then buying another place will be stupid money, if its worth squat, so will a new place.

Folk get way too invested in their house value in the UK.

Yeah true but we could still get better value on property elsewhere other than California and parts of Washington on the west coast.
 
Yeah true but we could still get better value on property elsewhere other than California and parts of Washington on the west coast.

Again, same here. I love where I live, maybe sell up if/when the garden gets too much and grab a flat at the marina in town. But the relationship re values/prices will remain constant. An open plan country cottage in an acre of land is worth more than a 2 bed apartment on a marina. If thats £1/2m versus £300k, or £12 versus £3, its largely academic.
 
Yeah we are considering selling while its so high and getting out while the going is good
Still got to buy somewhere else though. Our mortgage gets paid off in 18 months time, so once that goes, not really arsed what value the house is. If its still stupid money, then buying another place will be stupid money, if its worth squat, so will a new place.

Folk get way too invested in their house value in the UK.

I was talking to a guy a couple of months about this. His sister sold a home here in Seattle for $1.3 mil. She moved to St Louis and bought an old Victorian fixer upper home for $50k. After spending and additional $150k on the remodel she's still left with $1.1 mil. Basically retirement.

Way less property tax as well.

He said that him and his wife were considering doing the same thing.
 
I was talking to a guy a couple of months about this. His sister sold a home here in Seattle for $1.3 mil. She moved to St Louis and bought an old Victorian fixer upper home for $50k. After spending and additional $150k on the remodel she's still left with $1.1 mil. Basically retirement.

Way less property tax as well.

He said that him and his wife were considering doing the same thing.

Not an expert on US geography, but Seattle to St Louis is quite a move isnt it?
 


“I accept the conclusions that Russians meddled in the election...but could also have been many other people”!

Can’t even stick to his script for 60 seconds let alone go so far as to condemn the meddling or suggest it should not be repeated.


This so reminds me of Charlottesville, he said what he meant the first time and isn’t goimg to accept his staff telling him to walk it back for long.
 
We do, but there's very little that can be done about that until November.

Also, it's estimated that the "relatively inconsequential propaganda" reached ~30m people, and the election was lost by a margin of 0.2% of that number.

But the point is that by November, it is far too late.

Really though, for American democracy, it may already be, full stop. The Democrats cannot afford to lose too many more elections before relinquishing a fair shot at ever winning again. The Republicans are unconcerned in the slightest for niceties like political legitimacy, or the rule of law. In hindsight, the failure to raise awareness and mobilise for the 2010 midterms against gerrymandering, dark money, voter suppression etc - or even to vote in the first place - could well emerge as the point of no return. After his core converts sat out, Obama from then on had very chance, led alone inclination, to affect lasting transformational change.

The Republicans are much more cunning and ruthless when it comes to cheating and rigging elections in order to seize actual power (as opposed to just proclaiming the moral highground). And unlike American liberals, they aren't hindered by belief in their own rhetoric, about how America is just like an episode of the West Wing, and that divine providence will ensure that everything in the end always ends up okay.

Obama credulously bet the future on the conviction that his platitudes about reaching across the aisle, that there were no Red or Blue States - only the United States, would inspire even corrupt, cynical errand boys like Mitch McConnell to voluntarily suspend their lust for power, joining hands to sing Kumbaya. We know how that turned out. Obama built a cult of personality, rather than a political movement based on helping its adherents in concrete ways, and he neglected the party at every level below the Presidency. The origins of the 2016 defeat are here, first and foremost, and not in Moscow - to say nothing of the disaster that was Clinton campaign.

Anyhow, my point in bringing all this up is that there a tendency among American liberals (not targeting anyone specific on here, mind) to lose all perspective and coherence when it comes to Russia. It's like they expect something to magically happen, deus ex machina, to restore those carefree, innocent days before November 2016, if only they take to twitter with sufficient righteousness. Like it's a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card, or that they just need to click their heels three times and repeat "but.... but.... but lads, it's Russia!!!"

They have already framed and lost one election running against Russian collusion, and there's nothing to suggest this strategy won't lose them another one come November.

Even now, America remains a country where you can't win power without endearing yourself to uncommitted voters, or inspiring the more inert elements of your base to bother turning up. The Democrats need to tell these voters a better story - as A.O.C. or Sanders (who rarely mention Russia) uniquely seem to grasp. No amount of whinging that Trump's victory was not cricket, however serious or justified the evidence may be, is going to deliver them. Virtue alone is never sufficient to solve political problems; only political solutions are.

I am not trying to downplay the possible significance of Trump appearing to side with Putin over his own intelligence and security forces (though it should be noted that these are by and large monstrous organisations, and that the proper response to ogres like Clapper or Brennan is not to retweet their sanctimony about Trump, but to demand that they stand trial at the Hague).

My point is that even now, a degree of perspective is necessary. France, for instance, has dealt with similar allegations of Russian interference far less hysterically and therefore vastly more sensibly.

After all, 30 million people is less than 10% of the population. And "reached" can mean nothing more than that somebody scolled past without paying the slightest mind. If, like a good GOT-er, you've turned off your ad-block and a Russian ad turned up on here, most likely you'd breeze right past it too, without anything to indicate its origin. We have seen what the Russian social media ads look like, and they are indistinguishable for anything else coughed up by the sordid maw of unrestricted anonymous campaign spending + omnipresent data surveillence. And, if reports are to be believed, the amount Russia invested was in the hundreds of thousands - which is below the threshold of what the human eye can even see, in a spectacle that had over $2 billion of covert propaganda from all manner of grifters and charlatans lobbed at it.

Most likely, Republicans and their patrons will make a few bland statements of regret, a la Charlottesville, and then wait to see what happens in November. The Russians may even spend pocket change trying to spread things like this again, but in the end, the outcome will hinge on whether Chuck 'n' Nancy can think of even one good reason why anyone should vote for them, and I'm not sure anything happened in Helsinki which amounts to a message that voters haven't already heard before.
 
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But the point is that by November, it is far too late.

Really though, for American democracy, it may already be, full stop. The Democrats cannot afford to lose too many more elections before relinquishing a fair shot at ever winning again. The Republicans are unconcerned in the slightest for niceties like political legitimacy, or the rule of law. In hindsight, the failure to raise awareness and mobilise for the 2010 midterms against gerrymandering, dark money, voter suppression etc - or even to vote in the first place - could well emerge as the point of no return. After his core converts sat out, Obama from then on had very chance, led alone inclination, to affect lasting transformational change.

The Republicans are much more cunning and ruthless when it comes to cheating and rigging elections in order to seize actual power (as opposed to just proclaiming the moral highground). And unlike American liberals, they aren't hindered by belief in their own rhetoric, about how America is just like an episode of the West Wing, and that divine providence will ensure that everything in the end always ends up okay.

Obama credulously bet the future on the conviction that his platitudes about reaching across the aisle, that there were no Red or Blue States - only the United States, would inspire even corrupt, cynical errand boys like Mitch McConnell to voluntarily suspend their lust for power, joining hands to sing Kumbaya. We know how that turned out. Obama built a cult of personality, rather than a political movement based on helping its adherents in concrete ways, and he neglected the party at every level below the Presidency. The origins of the 2016 defeat are here, first and foremost, and not in Moscow - to say nothing of the disaster that was Clinton campaign.

Anyhow, my point in bringing all this up is that there a tendency among American liberals (not targeting anyone specific on here, mind) to lose all perspective and coherence when it comes to Russia. It's like they expect something to magically happen, deus ex machina, to restore those carefree, innocent days before November 2016, if only they take to twitter with sufficient righteousness. Like it's a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card, or that they just need to click their heels three times and repeat "but.... but.... but lads, it's Russia!!!"

They have already framed and lost one election running against Russian collusion, and there's nothing to suggest this strategy won't lose them another one come November.

Even now, America remains a country where you can't win power without endearing yourself to uncommitted voters, or inspiring the more inert elements of your base to bother turning up. The Democrats need to tell these voters a better story - as A.O.C. or Sanders (who rarely mention Russia) uniquely seem to grasp. No amount of whinging that Trump's victory was not cricket, however serious or justified the evidence may be, is going to deliver them. Virtue alone is never sufficient to solve political problems; only political solutions are.

I am not trying to downplay the possible significance of Trump appearing to side with Putin over his own intelligence and security forces (though it should be noted that these are by and large monstrous organisations, and that the proper response to ogres like Clapper or Brennan is not to retweet their sanctimony about Trump, but to demand that they stand trial at the Hague).

My point is that even now, a degree of perspective is necessary. France, for instance, has dealt with similar allegations of Russian interference far less hysterically and therefore vastly more sensibly.

After all, 30 million people is less than 10% of the population. And "reached" can mean nothing more than that somebody scolled past without paying the slightest mind. If, like a good GOT-er, you've turned off your ad-block and a Russian ad turned up on here, most likely you'd breeze right past it too, without anything to indicate its origin. We have seen what the Russian social media ads look like, and they are indistinguishable for anything else coughed up by the sordid maw of unrestricted anonymous campaign spending + omnipresent data surveillence. And, if reports are to be believed, the amount Russia invested was in the hundreds of thousands - which is below the threshold of what the human eye can even see, in a spectacle that had over $2 billion of covert propaganda from all manner of grifters and charlatans lobbed at it.

Most likely, Republicans and their patrons will make a few bland statements of regret, a la Charlottesville, and then wait to see what happens in November. The Russians may even spend pocket change trying to spread things like this again, but in the end, the outcome will hinge on whether Chuck 'n' Nancy can think of even one good reason why anyone should vote for them, and I'm not sure anything happened in Helsinki which amounts to a message that voters haven't already heard before.
On the ground some candidates don’t seem to be focusing on Russia, or even that much on Trump. The tax cuts, healthcare and trade seem to be far more discussed in say Ohio.


But that doesn’t mean you can’t walk and chew gum at the same time - here in California for instance both immigration and Russia are likely to mobilise a lot of both voters and money to support candidates especially given some of the GOP vulnerable seats like Nunes and Rohrabacher
 
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