Cycling thread

[Black Belt Jones]

It's not only less fun when all the strongest riders are in one team. They have an entire team full of potential GC winners; I was very displeased when it turned out that Bernal had signed a 5 year extension. It's all in the style; Quickstep last year was probably also dominant but that didn't bother people because they went about it in an attractive way.
I don't think you can tell me that the end of a sponsor of a team that leads to a 10/20 percent (on the core-markets) decrease in viewers compared to the five year average (I'm using the figures of Daam van Reeth and Wim Lagae; sports economists that work for the CUL...) , makes a sport more interesting to sponsor. Even in the U.K. there was a decrease of around 15 percent this year for the TdF (and that's only using the ITV numbers since Eurosport UK refuses to share their data, but it's not more than 200 000 ppl so wouldn't change the picture a whole lot) - and that's taking into account the WC effect.

Quickstep were ridiculously stacked in last year's classics - ten deep with Belgian hardmen. Flayed the field week in week out winning E3, Dwars door Flanders, Flanders, Fleche Wallone, LBL, plus a load of other races a level below. Would have won Roubaix but for the might of Sagan [QS roster for Roubaix: Terpstra, Gilbert, Stybar, Lampaert, Declercq, Keisse, Seneschal - at least four potential winners there]. But they went about it in an attractive way? If you're Belgian, maybe. I don't see that as particularly different to Sky's dominance of the Tour, it's just a subjective perspective of how you view that dominance.

Do you know how many people watched GT cycling in the UK prior to Sky? It was like ten blokes. So not sure how a 18% decrease is relevant against a 1000% total increase. People even watch the classics now which was basically unheard of here 10-15 years ago.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Quickstep were ridiculously stacked in last year's classics - ten deep with Belgian hardmen. Flayed the field week in week out winning E3, Dwars door Flanders, Flanders, Fleche Wallone, LBL, plus a load of other races a level below. Would have won Roubaix but for the might of Sagan [QS roster for Roubaix: Terpstra, Gilbert, Stybar, Lampaert, Declercq, Keisse, Seneschal - at least four potential winners there]. But they went about it in an attractive way? If you're Belgian, maybe. I don't see that as particularly different to Sky's dominance of the Tour, it's just a subjective perspective of how you view that dominance.

Do you know how many people watched GT cycling in the UK prior to Sky? It was like ten blokes. So not sure how a 18% decrease is relevant against a 1000% total increase. People even watch the classics now which was basically unheard of here 10-15 years ago.

It's an interesting one isn't it? The crowds for pretty much any British race are quite something. I mean the Tour de Yorkshire is a chipper really, yet they always get good crowds at roadside. It's just a more global sport now I think. It's hard to remember at times that over 20 years from 1965 to 1986, GTs were only won by French, Spanish, Italian, Belgian or Dutch riders. The big nations had a monopoly on things. Belgium still bosses the classics, but it's time for the other nations to pull their fingers out. Nibali is surely done as a GC rider, and Aru will never do it. Who does Italy have after them? France have perennial issues, and I can't see Bardet winning it. Spain don't really have anyone of note. The biggest challengers are Colombia, with guys like Lopez and Bernal, plus of course Quintana, whilst Dumoulin looks set to boss things when Froome fades. Dumoulin is many things, but he's not especially exciting either, so if the major nations want to regain their lustre, they've got to up their game a bit.

 

[Armel]

Quickstep were ridiculously stacked in last year's classics - ten deep with Belgian hardmen. Flayed the field week in week out winning E3, Dwars door Flanders, Flanders, Fleche Wallone, LBL, plus a load of other races a level below. Would have won Roubaix but for the might of Sagan [QS roster for Roubaix: Terpstra, Gilbert, Stybar, Lampaert, Declercq, Keisse, Seneschal - at least four potential winners there]. But they went about it in an attractive way? If you're Belgian, maybe. I don't see that as particularly different to Sky's dominance of the Tour, it's just a subjective perspective of how you view that dominance.

Do you know how many people watched GT cycling in the UK prior to Sky? It was like ten blokes. So not sure how a 18% decrease is relevant against a 1000% total increase. People even watch the classics now which was basically unheard of here 10-15 years ago.

That's not correct. I can honestly quote you heaps of articles about the attractiveness of Quickstep (and tbf they have to win the classics or they are mercilessly murdered in the domestic press since it's the Classics, they make or break your year in Belgium almost regardless of what you end up doing elsewhere, Lotto-Soudal gets destroyed every year for under performing) etc; not only from Belgium. For sure you had a few piss-takes, like finally they win again etc, but their style is popular. Do you remember Indurain; only really good at TT's and following uphill (bit of an understatement since he won the Tour five times in a row and the Giro two times; but you get the picture). Had a big loyal following everywhere. I was a fan (even though I only vaguely remember the last two tours that he won since I was young at the time). It's the style and the way they go about things. Might be subjective (as are most things) for sure, but it's a majority point of view. Hence the tremendous amount of schadenfreude from loads of people. Lefevre was sad though that they are leaving - they'll probably find another sponsor, remains to be seen how much they can bring to the table though. Also loads of cartoons:

It's a boutade but it's correct:



Equally I could also find heaps of articles lamenting Team Sky and the way they go about things, even from the British press.

I'm not denying the tremendous positive domestic effect they had btw; but there are +- 66 million British people give or take. The viewing figures are still relatively small if you compare to one of the traditional countries, some with a whole lot less people and I just thought it to be interesting that they are decreasing (the above figure was for the TdF btw) in a time when there is a tremendous amount of wealth in British GT talent - it was in relationship to a discussion with Bruce.

 

[Frang]

I already want a red and white marlboro road bike..

Oh yes

Make it happen McLaren

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's not correct. I can honestly quote you heaps of articles about the attractiveness of Quickstep (and tbf they have to win the classics or they are mercilessly murdered in the domestic press since it's the Classics, they make or break your year in Belgium almost regardless of what you end up doing elsewhere, Lotto-Soudal gets destroyed every year for under performing) etc; not only from Belgium. For sure you had a few piss-takes, like finally they win again etc, but their style is popular. Do you remember Indurain; only really good at TT's and following uphill (bit of an understatement since he won the Tour five times in a row and the Giro two times; but you get the picture). Had a big loyal following everywhere. I was a fan (even though I only vaguely remember the last two tours that he won since I was young at the time). It's the style and the way they go about things. Might be subjective (as are most things) for sure, but it's a majority point of view. Hence the tremendous amount of schadenfreude from loads of people. Lefevre was sad though that they are leaving - they'll probably find another sponsor, remains to be seen how much they can bring to the table though. Also loads of cartoons:

It's a boutade but it's correct:



Equally I could also find heaps of articles lamenting Team Sky and the way they go about things, even from the British press.

I'm not denying the tremendous positive domestic effect they had btw; but there are +- 66 million British people give or take. The viewing figures are still relatively small if you compare to one of the traditional countries, some with a whole lot less people and I just thought it to be interesting that they are decreasing (the above figure was for the TdF btw) in a time when there is a tremendous amount of wealth in British GT talent - it was in relationship to a discussion with Bruce.

I always thought Indurain was under-rated. Yes, he was incredible in the time trial and that meant he didn't really have to attack, but there were a couple of stages from (I think) 1995, the first where he attacked on a relatively flat stage with Bruyneel, and then when he just road everyone off his wheel in pursuit of Zulle that were just awesome displays of power. What's more, he was also a fantastic anti-hero to Pantani, which made great viewing, both in the Giro and the Tour. The 94 Giro, for instance, was an incredibly exciting race, although looking back with hindsight at what both Pantani and Berzin must have been on at the time does explain a lot.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Possible sponsor. The bloke in white was the founder of Instagram. Mad keen cyclist with a few bob to spend. Think the bloke at the back is from Wells Fargo too. Cycling is the new golf.

 

[Armel]

I always thought Indurain was under-rated. Yes, he was incredible in the time trial and that meant he didn't really have to attack, but there were a couple of stages from (I think) 1995, the first where he attacked on a relatively flat stage with Bruyneel, and then when he just road everyone off his wheel in pursuit of Zulle that were just awesome displays of power. What's more, he was also a fantastic anti-hero to Pantani, which made great viewing, both in the Giro and the Tour. The 94 Giro, for instance, was an incredibly exciting race, although looking back with hindsight at what both Pantani and Berzin must have been on at the time does explain a lot.

Yes but I don't care, they were very entertaining. They've suffered enough. Indurain once faked a flat tire in a TT to keep his brother Prudencio, not very talented, in the Tour; otherwise he would have ended outside the limit. Still took the yellow though.

It's different for someone like Anquetil; he was a repulsive character, he died an early death (53). He married the wife of his doctor, impregnated the daughter of said wife (there's a book about that btw; Pour l'amour de Jacques/ don't read that; it's a justification for weird incest to please the whims of a tyrant); and then he decided to marry the ex-wife of the son of his wife. That's next level crazy; you need to have a serious personality disorder to do all that. Poulidor on the other hand is still alive and friendly, that's why I'm always somewhat happy for him when VDP wins.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes but I don't care, they were very entertaining. They've suffered enough. Indurain once faked a flat tire in a TT to keep his brother Prudencio, not very talented, in the Tour; otherwise he would have ended outside the limit. Still took the yellow though.

It's different for someone like Anquetil; he was a repulsive character, he died an early death (53). He married the wife of his doctor, impregnated the daughter of said wife (there's a book about that btw; Pour l'amour de Jacques/ don't read that; it's a justification for weird incest to please the whims of a tyrant); and then he decided to marry the ex-wife of the son of his wife. That's next level crazy; you need to have a serious personality disorder to do all that. Poulidor on the other hand is still alive and friendly, that's why I'm always somewhat happy for him when VDP wins.

Really? I had no idea about Anquetil. Bonkers Pantani is who got me into cycling so he'll always get a free pass from me, but looking at it through older eyes, it's a bit like VDB, you marvel at it but also largely discount it as it's so silly. I guess the only one who has done that in a (I hope) clean way since then is Cancellara.

I feel a bit sorry for Froome as he has tried to be entertaining on the bike, and he probably suffers by being the gangly love child of Tonkov and Escartin. He just looks ugly on the bike. Really, really ugly. If you look at who else is there though, I mean Quintana is an incredibly dull rider, Dumoulin is largely an Indurain style hold on in the mountains and win in the TT kinda guy. Nibali and Valverde are both born racers, but you feel both are better suited to one dayers, especially now. Bardet is another pretty dull rider. Thomas is effective rather than particularly exciting, which just leaves Yates and the Colombian lads.

 

[Frang]

Possible sponsor. The bloke in white was the founder of Instagram. Mad keen cyclist with a few bob to spend. Think the bloke at the back is from Wells Fargo too. Cycling is the new golf.

What a bunch of....

 

[Armel]

Really? I had no idea about Anquetil. Bonkers lol Pantani is who got me into cycling so he'll always get a free pass from me, but looking at it through older eyes, it's a bit like VDB, you marvel at it but also largely discount it as it's so silly. I guess the only one who has done that in a (I hope) clean way since then is Cancellara.

I feel a bit sorry for Froome as he has tried to be entertaining on the bike, and he probably suffers by being the gangly love child of Tonkov and Escartin. He just looks ugly on the bike. Really, really ugly. If you look at who else is there though, I mean Quintana is an incredibly dull rider, Dumoulin is largely an Indurain style hold on in the mountains and win in the TT kinda guy. Nibali and Valverde are both born racers, but you feel both are better suited to one dayers, especially now. Bardet is another pretty dull rider. Thomas is effective rather than particularly exciting, which just leaves Yates and the Colombian lads.

Yes I forgot, he also impregnated said stepdaughter in law (when she was still married to his stepson). So he had a kid with his stepdaughter when she was 18 and then he had one with the wife of his stepson. The second child/affair led to the wife leaving, initially she gave into his threats and offered him her daughter (he said he wanted to leave because she couldn't have any more children. Well that's what he said but he would have found another reason). You couldn't make it up. Still he gets celebrated every TdF; maybe a very strong hyperbole but that's like Austria yearly celebrating Fritzl. He did however always openly admit that he had used doping; in quite an excessive manner probably leading to his early death.

VDB was naturally extremely talented and he probably used doping like most of them in that era (the issue was that he also used a lot of sleeping pills etc); he was troubled, one of those that always wants to do good for others, when you put pressure on them they break. Same with Pantani. Still they've inspired people and have songs about them. The song about VDB, has been number one in the low countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) all time top for years.

Froome is like the Theresa May of cycling, slightly more successful. Still, my dislike is mainly for the team, not the riders - problem is the team turns them into mindless drones and they start saying all sorts of idiocy; and that philosophy. They are also completely clueless about Europeans; loads of examples of badly timed Anglo-Saxon story-telling and then they are surprised that they get a cynical reaction. I actually like Wiggins, in se I don't really care if he is asthmatic or not (I do in relation to the team, not the rider), exciting character. Plus he has a very good encyclopedic knowledge of cycling I can very much appreciate that. Quite like how he keeps having a pop at Brailsford; I had to chuckle when he said that that package was a dildo for Brailsford earlier this month. Quintana is boring. Aru is exciting and still talented, I've not given up on him but it's time that he starts doing something again. Nibali is still there off course. Dumoulin is cool; yes Indurain mould and gives good interviews and says it how it is (hasn't got the hunger to continuously dominate though). Yates is also a good watch. Bernal looks like a brilliant prospect, I hope he turns out okay. Valverde, for sure he has doped himself, but he's very old and he keeps winning; it's insane - I'm looking forward to seeing him in the Tour of Flanders this year. He's glorious; you could hold a race on Mars against aliens and I'm still pretty sure he could end up winning the thing.

 

[wilfjacko]

Boring x

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes I forgot, he also impregnated said stepdaughter in law (when she was still married to his stepson). So he had a kid with his stepdaughter when she was 18 and then he had one with the wife of his stepson. The second child/affair led to the wife leaving, initially she gave into his threats and offered him her daughter (he said he wanted to leave because she couldn't have any more children. Well that's what he said but he would have found another reason). You couldn't make it up. Still he gets celebrated every TdF; maybe a very strong hyperbole but that's like Austria yearly celebrating Fritzl. He did however always openly admit that he had used doping; in quite an excessive manner probably leading to his early death.

VDB was naturally extremely talented and he probably used doping like most of them in that era (the issue was that he also used a lot of sleeping pills etc); he was troubled, one of those that always wants to do good for others, when you put pressure on them they break. Same with Pantani. Still they've inspired people and have songs about them. The song about VDB, has been number one in the low countries (Belgium and the Netherlands) all time top for years.

Froome is like the Theresa May of cycling, slightly more successful. Still, my dislike is mainly for the team, not the riders - problem is the team turns them into mindless drones and they start saying all sorts of idiocy; and that philosophy. They are also completely clueless about Europeans; loads of examples of badly timed Anglo-Saxon story-telling and then they are surprised that they get a cynical reaction. I actually like Wiggins, in se I don't really care if he is asthmatic or not (I do in relation to the team, not the rider), exciting character. Plus he has a very good encyclopedic knowledge of cycling I can very much appreciate that. Quite like how he keeps having a pop at Brailsford; I had to chuckle when he said that that package was a dildo for Brailsford earlier this month. Quintana is boring. Aru is exciting and still talented, I've not given up on him but it's time that he starts doing something again. Nibali is still there off course. Dumoulin is cool; yes Indurain mould and gives good interviews and says it how it is (hasn't got the hunger to continuously dominate though). Yates is also a good watch. Bernal looks like a brilliant prospect, I hope he turns out okay. Valverde, for sure he has doped himself, but he's very old and he keeps winning; it's insane - I'm looking forward to seeing him in the Tour of Flanders this year. He's glorious; you could hold a race on Mars against aliens and I'm still pretty sure he could end up winning the thing.

Aye, Valverde is a funny one. On the one hand, I struggle to shift the image that he's like a slightly more successful Simon Gerrans in that you don't see him at all in a race until the final few metres, at which point he inevitably wins. Huge respect for his ability to win so consistently for so long, but I wouldn't say he's exciting to watch really, just incredibly effective. I didn't know he was doing Flanders. Obviously given his palmares you can never rule him out, but I hope he doesn't succeed. LBL has become a bit dull (the dullest of the classics?) in that it's nearly always a sprint on the final climb. Gone are the days of VDB attacking from distance. Flanders is kinda the opposite, and alongside the Giro and Roubaix the three best races on the calendar (with Strada Bianchi a close 4th).

It's interesting who we like though isn't it and how easy it is to discard some dubious character traits if they're exciting to watch? Moscon is probably the best example in the modern peleton as he's undoubtedly hugely talented and good to watch, but also comes across as a bit of a turd.

 

[Armel]

It's interesting who we like though isn't it and how easy it is to discard some dubious character traits if they're exciting to watch? Moscon is probably the best example in the modern peleton as he's undoubtedly hugely talented and good to watch, but also comes across as a bit of a turd.

Valverde is an enjoyable snide, you can't fool me, he never once rode for Quintana or another team mate; he only rides for himself . For the last 2.5 years he never once finished out of the top 50 (+- 175 races), in every race he entered. Including an intermezzo because he broke his knee and ankle. He's good the whole year round. I wouldn't discard him in the Tour of Flanders; he was immense in Dwars door Vlaanderen this year; and he has no parcour knowledge once so ever. He opened the race by attacking a few times; I believe the first time was around the 70 K mark. He ended up 11th; and he has almost no cobblestone experience. It's much easier to create interesting races on narrow Flemish roads though; always a fight to sit in the front and lots of people fall and there's loads of wind. If he wants to; he can most definitely win the Tour of Flanders- I wouldn't mind. LBL needs another small parcour-change (I wouldn't make it more difficult though; since it's already very hard and probably one of the reasons why they wait so long), I understand it's the oldest of all the classics etc, but just change it up a bit. Not too much though.

Moscon is a next level turd though; a racist (who apologizes and then sort of rescinds the apology and then makes light about it) and who occasionally decides to punch/push other riders. Bit too much negatives there. He makes a good villain though. I think a lot of it has to do, if you can identify yourself a bit with the weaknesses being displayed by the rider. Their weaknesses make them more human. It can't be overly bad though. Pantani wasn't a bad person, he just struggled, so it's easy to forgive. Reading cyclists biographies you'll almost always notice that quite a few of them live(d) sad lives, especially the older generation - especially when their career ends. It's worse than in other sports. Mind you, you also have 'normal' types; Bugno, Merckx, Poulidor etc... But for the majority life isn't really a pony camp. Well I guess this is true for a lot of people and maybe I just notice it more in them.

Freire, I always loved Freire, very eccentric and his head always in the clouds, never really aware of what he was doing on the bike but he won loads of races. Like that time he accidentally won the Brabantse pijl. He was bored and asked Boogerd if they were almost there; Boogerd pointed to the sign next to the road saying "500 m". He just said O , switched gears and won the race. He hated cycling in the rain though. He only wanted to train in good weather. He once rode 300 K to find clear skies, only having arrived there he discovered that he had forgotten his bike... Loads of good anecdotes about him.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Valverde is an enjoyable snide, you can't fool me, he never once rode for Quintana or another team mate; he only rides for himself . For the last 2.5 years he never once finished out of the top 50 (+- 175 races), in every race he entered. Including an intermezzo because he broke his knee and ankle. He's good the whole year round. I wouldn't discard him in the Tour of Flanders; he was immense in Dwars door Vlaanderen this year; and he has no parcour knowledge once so ever. He opened the race by attacking a few times; I believe the first time was around the 70 K mark. He ended up 11th; and he has almost no cobblestone experience. It's much easier to create interesting races on narrow Flemish roads though; always a fight to sit in the front and lots of people fall and there's loads of wind. If he wants to; he can most definitely win the Tour of Flanders- I wouldn't mind. LBL needs another small parcour-change (I wouldn't make it more difficult though; since it's already very hard and probably one of the reasons why they wait so long), I understand it's the oldest of all the classics etc, but just change it up a bit. Not too much though.

Moscon is a next level turd though; a racist (who apologizes and then sort of rescinds the apology and then makes light about it) and who occasionally decides to punch/push other riders. Bit too much negatives there. He makes a good villain though. I think a lot of it has to do, if you can identify yourself a bit with the weaknesses being displayed by the rider. Their weaknesses make them more human. It can't be overly bad though. Pantani wasn't a bad person, he just struggled, so it's easy to forgive. Reading cyclists biographies you'll almost always notice that quite a few of them live(d) sad lives, especially the older generation - especially when their career ends. It's worse than in other sports. Mind you, you also have 'normal' types; Bugno, Merckx, Poulidor etc... But for the majority life isn't really a pony camp. Well I guess this is true for a lot of people and maybe I just notice it more in them.

Freire, I always loved Freire, very eccentric and his head always in the clouds, never really aware of what he was doing on the bike but he won loads of races. Like that time he accidentally won the Brabantse pijl. He was bored and asked Boogerd if they were almost there; Boogerd pointed to the sign next to the road saying "500 m". He just said O , switched gears and won the race. He hated cycling in the rain though. He only wanted to train in good weather. He once rode 300 K to find clear skies, only having arrived there he discovered that he had forgotten his bike... Loads of good anecdotes about him.

Aye, for all the terrible things he's done, I find it hard to dislike ullrich. It's not rational really as he's done some bad stuff, but I guess the very nature of support is irrational.

 

[Armel]

Dumoulin is doing the Giro this year, probably because there are a lot of TT km's in comparison. Bit of a weird decision to still go to the Tour afterwards though, a week less of rest in between in comparison to this year. I suppose it could also be a backup for when he falls in the Giro or something.