Current Affairs Culture wars & The rise of grifting

[Goat]

Dissident isn't really the correct word because you wouldn't really be challenging the government in any way but it's not really appropriate to call it apathy because that implies you don't care.

I guess it means I've lost all faith in the "establishment", our government and the institutions. I think they all stink to high heaven and I don't believe voting red or blue or any other colour tie is going to change anything.

I don't know why this has fired so many people up. I don't know why it has encouraged people to be rude but it's clear to me, at least, that refusing to pick a side and have my cords pulled obviously rubs people up the wrong way.

I see, only a fool would have trust in Governments at this point.

 

[tsubaki]

A lot of assumptions there

Not really, given the sort of people who tend to be most active in these sorts of things and certainly who’ve turned up here over the last couple of years.

 

[Uuuuuurgh plop plop]

I see, only a fool would have trust in Governments at this point.

That's my point, that's all it's ever been. For me it was the Iraq war. The lies that got us into the war, the death of Dr David Kelly. I just stopped trusting them, stopped believing them. Not a single one of them can lie straight in bed. It's not just politicians either, it's the institutions too. The BBC harboured paedophiles for decades, I can never let that go, never forgive them and if you go down that rabbit hole then it takes you to the very top of society. I want rid of it all.

 

[Charro]

That's my point, that's all it's ever been. For me it was the Iraq war. The lies that got us into the war, the death of Dr David Kelly. I just stopped trusting them, stopped believing them. Not a single one of them can lie straight in bed. It's not just politicians either, it's the institutions too. The BBC harboured paedophiles for decades, I can never let that go, never forgive them and if you go down that rabbit hole then it takes you to the very top of society. I want rid of it all.

You are very clever and extremely enlightened.

Can you tell us more about pedophiles in the BBC and the Iraq war please. We have no idea about that.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

That's my point, that's all it's ever been. For me it was the Iraq war. The lies that got us into the war, the death of Dr David Kelly. I just stopped trusting them, stopped believing them. Not a single one of them can lie straight in bed. It's not just politicians either, it's the institutions too. The BBC harboured paedophiles for decades, I can never let that go, never forgive them and if you go down that rabbit hole then it takes you to the very top of society. I want rid of it all.

Have you got a big diagram? Preferably with photos connected with red string?

 

[tsubaki]

That's my point, that's all it's ever been. For me it was the Iraq war. The lies that got us into the war, the death of Dr David Kelly. I just stopped trusting them, stopped believing them. Not a single one of them can lie straight in bed. It's not just politicians either, it's the institutions too. The BBC harboured paedophiles for decades, I can never let that go, never forgive them and if you go down that rabbit hole then it takes you to the very top of society. I want rid of it all.

This is what I meant by "homogenous dissidence". Not all politicians are like that (in fact Blair and Johnson are the exceptions to the rule) nor are the institutions (Savile for example was not only employed by or featured in the BBC, he was in loads of papers) - but rather than deal with people who misbehave, the ones who caused all these problems (which is what any decent society would do) the belief is that it is the Establishment who are the problem.

This can only ever benefit the people who were guilty in the first place.

 

[ClausThomsen]

That's my point, that's all it's ever been. For me it was the Iraq war. The lies that got us into the war, the death of Dr David Kelly. I just stopped trusting them, stopped believing them. Not a single one of them can lie straight in bed. It's not just politicians either, it's the institutions too. The BBC harboured paedophiles for decades, I can never let that go, never forgive them and if you go down that rabbit hole then it takes you to the very top of society. I want rid of it all.

Genuine question - Do you believe that the people who make up the current BBC or the general culture there are equally culpable for the actions and decisions taken 30, 40 or 50 years ago? Do you believe that there has been no culture shift whatsoever in terms of how abuses of power are viewed, tackled, exposed or covered up?

It's just that that particular mantra of paedo apologists and cover-ups is often repeated by many demonstrably vile individuals, political organisations and media groups who view the BBC as an obstacle to their particular agendas be they legal, moral or commercial.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Best part of the forum. NEA

 

[Uuuuuurgh plop plop]

Genuine question - Do you believe that the people who make up the current BBC or the general culture there are equally culpable for the actions and decisions taken 30, 40 or 50 years ago? Do you believe that there has been no culture shift whatsoever in terms of how abuses of power are viewed, tackled, exposed or covered up?

It's just that that particular mantra of paedo apologists and cover-ups is often repeated by many demonstrably vile individuals, political organisations and media groups who view the BBC as an obstacle to their particular agendas be they legal, moral or commercial.

Yes!

 

[tsubaki]

Genuine question - Do you believe that the people who make up the current BBC or the general culture there are equally culpable for the actions and decisions taken 30, 40 or 50 years ago? Do you believe that there has been no culture shift whatsoever in terms of how abuses of power are viewed, tackled, exposed or covered up?

It's just that that particular mantra of paedo apologists and cover-ups is often repeated by many demonstrably vile individuals, political organisations and media groups who view the BBC as an obstacle to their particular agendas be they legal, moral or commercial.

Yes, they can't be blamed for what happened many years ago but the notion that reform (of any institution) has made it impossible for someone to misbehave is something that should be treated with extreme caution. Self-interest is nearly always the primary concern of people and organizations.

I mean it is never about what someone has done, its always about who has done it. Savile got away with what he did because of who he was, and if the BBC (or any institution anywhere in the world) is faced with a problem like that again it will probably do the same thing.

 

[Uuuuuurgh plop plop]

This is what I meant by "homogenous dissidence". Not all politicians are like that (in fact Blair and Johnson are the exceptions to the rule) nor are the institutions (Savile for example was not only employed by or featured in the BBC, he was in loads of papers) - but rather than deal with people who misbehave, the ones who caused all these problems (which is what any decent society would do) the belief is that it is the Establishment who are the problem.

This can only ever benefit the people who were guilty in the first place.

Sounds a lot like sitting on ones hands to me

 

[tsubaki]

Sounds a lot like sitting on ones hands to me

not really, but its better than doing the guilty man's work for him

 

[Uuuuuurgh plop plop]

Yes, they can't be blamed for what happened many years ago but the notion that reform (of any institution) has made it impossible for someone to misbehave is something that should be treated with extreme caution. Self-interest is nearly always the primary concern of people and organizations.

I mean it is never about what someone has done, its always about who has done it. Savile got away with what he did because of who he was, and if the BBC (or any institution anywhere in the world) is faced with a problem like that again it will probably do the same thing.

Napoleon said "there are 2 levers that motivate men. Fear and self interest".

It's the same as giving a donkey the carrot or the stick. That's our problem now, we're too soft to use the stick. People like Savile or any other corrupt slime balls need to feel fear, genuine fear. Fear that once they are caught, and they will be caught, that the consequences will be dire. Same goes to those who are running cover or just too scared to speak out. They should be more worried about not speaking out.

 

[Uuuuuurgh plop plop]

not really, but its better than doing the guilty man's work for him

We've been trying to reform the institutions for decades. It doesn't work. It's also disingenuous to say that an attack on an institution is a defence of a guilty party. Especially when the institution creates the culture that allows those crimes to be committed.

 

[tsubaki]

We've been trying to reform the institutions for decades. It doesn't work. It's also disingenuous to say that an attack on an institution is a defence of a guilty party. Especially when the institution creates the culture that allows those crimes to be committed.

"We" haven't reformed it, a very small set of politicians (the same ones you profess to despise) have.

I mean look at the BBC - gone from a public service broadcaster that generated much of its own content (and very well too) which had its own culture, values and independence to (via a load of reforms) something stuffed with political appointees. Something which is cowed into going along with whatever the government of the day wants and which has to prostrate itself every time the licence fee comes up again.

You can say much the same thing about the Army (cut to ribbons in each successive review), the Navy (ditto), the NHS (in receipt of ever greater funding solely to prop up the financial scams imposed on it), the Police (cut and politicized), the Judiciary, tertiary education (student debt), constitutional norms and traditions and especially Parliament. "The Establishment" has been fairly consistently attacked (rather than "reformed") for the past forty plus years.

Napoleon said "there are 2 levers that motivate men. Fear and self interest".

It's the same as giving a donkey the carrot or the stick. That's our problem now, we're too soft to use the stick. People like Savile or any other corrupt slime balls need to feel fear, genuine fear. Fear that once they are caught, and they will be caught, that the consequences will be dire. Same goes to those who are running cover or just too scared to speak out. They should be more worried about not speaking out.

So why then do you want them to get away with it? If you want to scare corrupt people, look at what they are afraid of, what they've tried to destroy here and then restore (or improve) that.