Cricket

[Bruce Wayne]

I think it's an interesting discussion, and wasnt necessarily going round in circles.

I made a couple of points of order, that Sibley didnt score as quickly as Root.

I'd contextualize the discussion more as, while I understand it's their job to see off the new ball, on doing that you have to be able to capitalize when you get in (as opening the batting will often mean low scores to great balls). You're view is more that this isnt important as long as they chew up balls.

I grant you it's not easy, it England have had 5 or 6 openers who could do what I asked in the last 15 years. It's a reasonable aspiration.

But yes, I agree, if you want a couple of lads to just chew up balls, I do concede they can probably do that, as can Joe Denly.

We do need batsman to progress don't we? Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, Cook are all a good 10 runs ahead of our current openers, and all had the ability to bat long but also bat at a reasonable tempo. It's not just the openers though really, as in that era we've also had KP, Trott, Bell and Collingwood, who are are all better batsmen than all of our frontline batters except Root. With Prior being a marked improvement on Buttler as well, we're not as we were, with guys like Bairstow and Moeen given extended runs but sadly not up to their predecessors standards.

That England can still compete is more due to the fact that similar declines in standards are visible across the world, with most test playing nations now having 1-2 top batters and then a bunch of mediocrity. Australia are in the best place with 3 top drawer batsmen, but even that's way below their lineups since the Border era. With Amla gone, South Africa don't have a single batsman averaging over 40. India appear better stocked, but a lot of their decorated batsman average nearly 20 runs more at home than they do away, so they're nowhere near the Tendulkar/Dravid vintage.

20/20 has kinda knackered test match batting it seems.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

We do need batsman to progress don't we? Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, Cook are all a good 10 runs ahead of our current openers, and all had the ability to bat long but also bat at a reasonable tempo. It's not just the openers though really, as in that era we've also had KP, Trott, Bell and Collingwood, who are are all better batsmen than all of our frontline batters except Root. With Prior being a marked improvement on Buttler as well, we're not as we were, with guys like Bairstow and Moeen given extended runs but sadly not up to their predecessors standards.

That England can still compete is more due to the fact that similar declines in standards are visible across the world, with most test playing nations now having 1-2 top batters and then a bunch of mediocrity. Australia are in the best place with 3 top drawer batsmen, but even that's way below their lineups since the Border era. With Amla gone, South Africa don't have a single batsman averaging over 40. India appear better stocked, but a lot of their decorated batsman average nearly 20 runs more at home than they do away, so they're nowhere near the Tendulkar/Dravid vintage.

20/20 has kinda knackered test match batting it seems.

We're going through an era where so many teams have so much quality bowling available to them, there's rarely been an era where batting has been as tough, not just against one dominant team but nearly every side you play.

Australia can rotate theirs as they did in last year's ashes, India now have world class seamers and extreme pace as well as their traditional strength of spin. Pakistan are well covered and seem to have a factory producing good young quick bowlers, plus their leg spinners West Indies although not able to rotate can field a first class seam attack of real pace and South Africa although temporarily weakened due to retirements have Philander a master of control and movement and Ribada.

It's a tough time atm to be a batsman and these things go in cycles where the batsmen or bowlers are dominant comparing eras is fraught with difficulty and very rarely like with like situations

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We're going through an era where so many teams have so much quality bowling available to them, there's rarely been an era where batting has been as tough, not just against one dominant team but nearly every side you play.

Australia can rotate theirs as they did in last year's ashes, India now have world class seamers and extreme pace as well as their traditional strength of spin. Pakistan are well covered and seem to have a factory producing good young quick bowlers, plus their leg spinners West Indies although not able to rotate can field a first class seam attack of real pace and South Africa although temporarily weakened due to retirements have Philander a master of control and movement and Ribada.

It's a tough time atm to be a batsman and these things go in cycles where the batsmen or bowlers are dominant comparing eras is fraught with difficulty and very rarely like with like situations

The batsman mentioned had to face McGrath, Steyn, Warne, Murali, Philander, Lee, Kumble, Broad, Harbajhan, Zaheer Khan, Ntini and Anderson. Just off the top of my head, and yet it was an era with openers of the calibre of Graham Smith, Matthew Hayden, Sehwag, Cook. No opener is of that calibre now.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

The batsman mentioned had to face McGrath, Steyn, Warne, Murali, Philander, Lee, Kumble, Broad, Harbajhan, Zaheer Khan, Ntini and Anderson. Just off the top of my head, and yet it was an era with openers of the calibre of Graham Smith, Matthew Hayden, Sehwag, Cook. No opener is of that calibre now.

You're covering a lot of years not an era - if I covered the last five or ten years I could name an awful lot of the top of my head too.

Generally I'd say it's a moment in time where most teams have great attacks and are less well equipped in batting but one can easily affect the other, it's not always so simple.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You're covering a lot of years not an era - if I covered the last five or ten years I could name an awful lot of the top of my head too.

Generally I'd say it's a moment in time where most teams have gtmreat attacks and are less well equipped in batting but one can easily affect the other, it's not always so simple.

See the charts above. That's an incredible decline in test batting across the board.

 

[BigMick]

Poor start to Day 2 for Lancs.

Davies out 3rd ball of the day, edging Raine to slip. Not sure what he was trying to do, possibly tried to leave it or glide it down, but steered it straight to slip.

Jennings had the more difficult task facing the always excellent Rushworth, and it was a good ball that got him edging to slip for 18.

The attractive Bohannon and Vilas at the wicket, latest score 52 - 2.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

See the charts above. That's an incredible decline in test batting across the board.

There's no point, my conclusions won't change. I think I've been pretty fair tbh.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

Shahid Afridi

@SAfridiOfficial
Congratulations England on a memorable win! Brilliant batting by Buttler and Woakes. Pakistan had the game in the grip, unfortunate that the game slipped away. Such opportunities can not be wasted, pitch was very suitable for our bowling attack.

Mohammed Kaif

What Pak missed today,England had in abundance. Self-belief, character, skill and match winners like Buttler & Woakes. Top effort to bounce back from conceding a 107-run lead in the 1st innings & being 117/5 battling last under pressure. You've got to love test cricket!#ENGvsPAK






@ashwinravi99
A rare rare 4 th innings chase. Well done England.

#ENGvsPAK





James Taylor

@jamestaylor20
You absolute beauties! Outstanding win and brilliant team effort!! Great start to the series. @englandcricket

#ENGvPAK




Ian bishop

@irbishi
Test Cricket, even in the bubble is still great theater. You can't undervalue the character with which England achieved that win, from 117-5. Im sure back stronger nezt week. Stay "Woakes" everyone.

Michael Vaughan

@MichaelVaughan
England & Pakistan are the best 2 teams to follow in World cricket ... Never ever quite know what to expect ... but it makes them both very exciting to watch ... #TestCricket

Eoin Morgan

@Eoin16
Absolute quality @josbuttler and @chriswoakes




Mickey Arthur

@Mickeyarthurcr1
How good is test cricket...Patience,Pressure and Partnerships with bat and ball wins it.....#TestCricket



Herschelle Gibbs

@hershybru
@chriswoakes experience of 10+ first class 100, showing its true value today. The foundation for every great cricketer

Neil Fairbrother

@Harv366
As @ShaneWarne said, @josbuttler has ticker, bottle and character, let’s leave it at that!! What a win, test match cricket at its best!!!





Gary Lineker

@GaryLineker
What a win for @englandcricket. Test match cricket at its wonderful, gripping, inimitable best.

Andy Zaltzman (Cricinfo,)

@ZaltzCricket
Buttler and Woakes..... brilliant attack, followed by ruthless accumulation. One of England's finest Test partnerships, I would say.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There's no point, my conclusions won't change. I think I've been pretty fair tbh.

So you think every single team suddenly has swathes of world beating bowlers? Nothing to do with the erosion in batting quality from the introduction of T20? Something no less than Ricky Ponting suggests is widespread. Even someone like James Anderson has seen his bowling average fall by about 8 runs since 2014 and the widespread introduction of T20. Are we to believe he's radically improved as a bowler?

 

[catcherintherye]

We do need batsman to progress don't we? Trescothick, Strauss, Vaughan, Cook are all a good 10 runs ahead of our current openers, and all had the ability to bat long but also bat at a reasonable tempo. It's not just the openers though really, as in that era we've also had KP, Trott, Bell and Collingwood, who are are all better batsmen than all of our frontline batters except Root. With Prior being a marked improvement on Buttler as well, we're not as we were, with guys like Bairstow and Moeen given extended runs but sadly not up to their predecessors standards.

That England can still compete is more due to the fact that similar declines in standards are visible across the world, with most test playing nations now having 1-2 top batters and then a bunch of mediocrity. Australia are in the best place with 3 top drawer batsmen, but even that's way below their lineups since the Border era. With Amla gone, South Africa don't have a single batsman averaging over 40. India appear better stocked, but a lot of their decorated batsman average nearly 20 runs more at home than they do away, so they're nowhere near the Tendulkar/Dravid vintage.

20/20 has kinda knackered test match batting it seems.

Yes good post. I think DRS has made a big difference too, not just more LBW's but batsman not being able to just shunt across the crease, block balls off with their pads and ultimately rarely be given out has meant they have to hit the ball a lot more often. It's tested the technique more, especially when it swings and seams. Overall I think it's been a really good innovation for the game, and made for better test matches and ultimately a better competition between bat and ball.

On the 2nd point, I'm not so sure it bears out. Root averages more than any of the others. Stokes is very close in average to them already (and is 60+ ove rthe last couple of years) and will probbly end his career with at least a comaprable average. Pope averages 40+ a well. Those 3 are absolutely fine. I take the point re Buttler/Prior, but I think if Buttler is one position higher his average shoots up markedly.

The big issue to me are the openers where there is a big decline. Nowthat is only partially shown by numbers currenly. I think Sibley is 39 and Burns 34. Sibley helped himself to runs against a very poor South African attack and to be honest a decent but no more West Indies attack. I see their averages only going one way, as they begin to get worked out. This is not just about numbers, but also just a gut feel from watching them. I think in cricket, as in life you sometimes see things in people where you can see they have the capability of improvement, and not with others. I think Sibley Burns are playing close to peak.

I look at Crawley, at 21 and think there is a real player there. He scores all around the wicket, has a variety of scoring shots and is light on his feet to spinners. I see a batsman there who if he sees off the new ball can prosper.

Remember Trescothic and Vaughan averaged mid 30's in first class cricket, but had those skills and ultimately took to test cricket. I see that with Crawley.

 

[Jeff Jones]

I went bed at 71 -1 and stopped watching the recording this morning at 105 - 4. All over, I thought.

Later on I was watching UK Sky News and when the front pages of the papers were scrolling across the screen I saw Woakes walking off with his bat and a big grin on his face. Daily Mirror I think it was. What's happened here, I wondered.

Went back to the recording and what a good Test match it was.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

So you think every single team suddenly has swathes of world beating bowlers? Nothing to do with the erosion in batting quality from the introduction of T20? Something no less than Ricky Ponting suggests is widespread. Even someone like James Anderson has seen his bowling average fall by about 8 runs since 2014 and the widespread introduction of T20. Are we to believe he's radically improved as a bowler?

'so you...nothing to do.' stuff was a little unnecessary imo...

DRS and T20 have undoubtedly been major influences but hardly goes against what I was saying anyway. It's NOT a great time for top class batsmen, I can think of Smith, Kohli Wiliamson, the other Aussie who's name escapes me for the minute but starred along with Smith last year, and Wiliamson as among the best around..I was hardly saying it's nothing to do with other fairly obvious factors too..l What I did say was there are a lot of international sides with excellent bowling attacks at the moment and this will obviously affect how difficult it is to progress as a batsman.

Of course there are other major factors at play too, the preponderance of short form cricket has been a major influence in batsmen having less patience and willing to play strokes and take risks far earlier in their innings, including the new manufactured one day strokes too - note: I'm not saying this is a bad thing so don't conclude such.

The widespread and now universal iintroduction of DRS has brought far more success, especially for spinners as it's virtually eliminated pad play and use of the pad as a line of defence.

These have both been influencing the game over the last ten years but now is a particular point in time where most sides have a strong attack too doubling down and greatly strengthening the effects of the above.

 

[BigMick]

Lancs 102 -3 at lunch, Bohannon 22no, Livingstone 3no.

Vilas out just before the interval for 32, edging to slip. Excellent, hard fought morning session. Durham's medium pacers bowled really well, made Lancs battle for their runs. Vilas excellent off his legs again but undone by the part time bowling of Harte in the final over.

South African England Lion Brydon Carse bowled a lot better today. He can bowl around 90mph and it's easy to see why England have an eye on him. His issues seem to be accuracy, perhaps when trying for extra pace, like last night, and fitness, with all the injuries he's had.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Bad news about Stokes, hope everything is OK with him and the family.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

Bad news about Stokes, hope everything is OK with him and the family.

Yes

Stokes withdraws from England squad to be with family in New Zealand

EXCLUSIVE: England all-rounder Ben Stokes will play no further part in the Test match summer as he flies to New Zealand to be with his family

www.mirror.co.uk

Massive blow but his family come first. It becomes same again now probable unless they bring in Wood but the makeup of the team will be the same with only five batsmen, a keeper, two bowling all rounders and four seamers

Curran Crawley and Wood in for me though

i had expected 3-0 after the first but this makes it wide open again.